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Thread: Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu

  1. #31
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    "you can't comment on my art till you've practiced it for twenty years"

    I don't believe I've ever said that, please don't put words in my mouth or twist the context of my comments. I had at one point reccommended that one should have some first hand knowledge of whatever one chooses to criticize, and I stand by that. Talk about what you know, ask about what you don't know. All I have asked of you, Dan, is to provide sources for you arguments, so we can all see for ourselves, instead of just alluding to these sources. The specifics of wearing swords is not something I can recall being discussed at length in more than 1 or 2 books. I want to see the historical evidence so I can come to/modify my own conclusion.

    Also, please direct me to the threads where this has been discussed so that I can read them.
    Last edited by Brian Dunham; 18th February 2002 at 17:18.

  2. #32
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    Not to bring this thread any further off topic but...

    Have you ever seen densho from MJER,MSR, Muraku ryu, Tamiya ryu, Hoki ryu, Shin Muso Hayashizaki ryu,or Hayashizaki Muso ryu?
    Now seems like a good time to clear up a misconception regarding Hoki ryu and its relationship to Hayashizaki ryu that I have been meaning to correct for awhile. While it is popularly believed that Katayama Hisayasu was a student of Hayashizaki, it turns out that they had absolutely no connection what so ever and there is no relationship between the two schools (even I got tricked into thinking they were related in my earlier research into Hoki ryu due to modern iai source books continually quoting and misquoting the same handful of sources, which turned out to be wrong in the first place). I will bring this comment more on topic (or is it less off topic) by saying I learned this by actually studying the Katayama Hoki ryu densho. Interestingly enough, traditionally Hoki ryu also wore the sword on the side, not at an angle (the reason being that that is just where you wear the sword when wearing armor). That said alot of current Hoki ryu groups do wear it at an angle. When asked why, the only answer I have really heard given is that it is due to the bleed over from practitioners learning the seitei gata first and developing habits from there.

    I also have pictures of a Hayashizaki Shin Muso ryu densho from the Meiji period here in front of me and in giving it a quick scan I don't see anything written about the placement of the sword in the obi in it off hand. It does have illustrations of the techniques, but these are almost stick figure-ish in style and don't really show anything regarding sword placement either. I have also seen MJER densho as well and they were also inconclusive in that regard, again due to the nature of the drawings and such.

    Best,
    Rennis Buchner

  3. #33
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    Regarding the angle of the sword, a few speculations:

    1) If you are doing iai from either a seiza or iaigoshi position, it will, of course, be impossible for the sword to be vertical. The floor will get in the way.

    2) I do not know about the drawing techniques of other shcools, but in the basic MJER draw as I was taught, the idea is to draw out the sword so that until the last possible moment the tsukagashira is pointing directly at the enemy's eyes, the edge is still up, and the hand is gripping the tsuka from underneath. This accomplishes a number of things: 1) it is sort of a "mestubushi", the idea being to startle the enemy and draw his attention to the tsukagashira that is approaching his face, 2) since the blade is straight out and the edge is still up, the direction of the eventual cut has not yet been telegraphed since the edge has not been turned and the blade is (or should be) hidden behind the tsuba due to the angle of the draw, and 3) insofar as possible, the wrist of the sword drawing hand (and the swordsman) is shielded.

    Now, I will agree straight away that the eventual cut that results from a draw like this is going to lack serious cutting power unless one has really practiced quite a bit. I recall how "unnatural" it felt when I was first learning it. However, as I was taught that the target was either the eyes/temple or the throat, and that the finishing stroke was the following kirioroshi, this first cut does not have to be strong enough to cleave steel.

    To do a draw in this way, the sword needs to be positioned in the center of the body so that it can be drawn straight out, not from the side. Does this necessarily mean that you must walk around with the tsuba (or the tsukagashira) over the navel (I have heard both explanations) and with the sword sticking out behind you? No. You bring it into that position when you want to draw it, a matter of a few nanoseconds for an experienced swordsman.

    This is not intended as a comparison of the efficacy of the MJER draw as compared to that of other schools, BTW, so don't nobody get testy. I don't want to get into a "DTSWW" ("Dude, That Stuff Wouldn't Work") discussion.
    Earl Hartman

  4. #34
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hey Bud

    I was hoping I could get you further drawn into the Tanto-jutsu thread in the members lounge and some more eloguant armors dicussion like the old days......

    Any way
    I don't think we are even talking about what Ryu's do. MJER has their own theory about cutting as does everyone else. It all good.
    But rather how the Samurai as a group wore ther swords among the public at large.
    A silly rather narrow topic.

    Now go post something meaningful and substantial about armor so we can yak- instead of this fooforall

    Thanks
    Dan

  5. #35
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    Hey, Dan. I'll check out the thread and see if I have anything more to add.
    Earl Hartman

  6. #36
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    Default Sword-Wearing Snootches

    Sword-Wearing Snootches
    (with Apologies to Dr. Seuss)

    On the island of Snitchel in Faraway Sea
    There lived clans of Snootches, as proud as can be.

    They loved being warriors and serving their lords
    But most of all, Snootches loved playing with swords.

    They fought in great battles, but when those were through, they'd take to the streets for a sword duel or two. You see, Snootches were such a combat-prone crew, that when peacetimes arose, they had nothing to do. They fought over insults no matter how slight ("I just saw your mother. She's ugly, alright!").

    Now, Snootches in battles had much different needs
    than Snootches in street scenes: the former used steeds.

    Those Snootches on horseback would find their great swords
    could whack flank and saddle unless they tipped forwards.

    So horse-riding Snootches adjusted their sheath ...horizontally -- which left enough space underneath.

    And one added bonus was with such an angle, a foot-soldier Snootch couldn't grab the sheath's dangle.

    But back in the city, with crowds and tight spaces, horizontal-kept swords put a Snootch in bad graces. In alleys and tea shops, on streets and in court, a sword worn that way could make tempers grow short.

    All it would take was a whack on the duff for a duel to get started and things to get rough.

    So street-strolling Snootches adjusted their blade...vertically -- needing less space to evade.

    Now, every so often a Snootch would sit down, on cushion or chair during sojourns in town.

    Whenever that happened, the sword was re-shifted -- depending on how the seat lowered or lifted. And upon how much space there was fore and a-stern to accommodate movement - standing up with quick turn.

    It was all common sense; there were no hard, fast rules. The Snootches wore swords as their everyday tools.

    But times now are different. Snootches no longer fight. They hang out and sing karaoke all night. There's only old photos, in vague shades of gray, to provide us with hints of their ancestors' way.

    If those Snootches of old could come back for a chat, they'd probably wonder why there's such a spat over whether they wore their swords sideways or straight. They'd say, "Don't you have better things to debate??"

    "We wore swords at angles permitting mobility, adjusting the slant to maintain our agility.
    When shifting from horseback to floor seat or crowd, we simply switched angles as the setting allowed.

    "To seek deeper meaning in such simple deed, makes us wonder if maybe you folks have the need
    to get on with your lives and spend more time in shugyo. The answer will come to you there, not on E-Budo."

    Cady Goldfield

  7. #37
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    And now we know the rest of the story...

    Cady that was good.


    James
    James Willliams
    Kaicho
    Nami ryu

  8. #38
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Cady you're amazing. Tommorrow I shall bow to you!!

    Hey do you still have the one you wrote into the Iai list years ago? That was a riot. Start a thread. I'll contribute the O sensei beach head war story I wrote.

    ya kill me
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 19th February 2002 at 03:23.

  9. #39
    Ben Bartlett Guest

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    I submit to your superior rhyming skills.

  10. #40
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    Talking

    Originally posted by Ben Bartlett
    I submit to your superior rhyming skills.
    Once again, the pen proves mightier than the sword... well, at least from a distance of many miles. I'm sure Dan will remind me that "miles" is the crucial measure when we're training tonight.



    Cady
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 19th February 2002 at 15:28.
    Cady Goldfield

  11. #41
    M.W. Jones Guest

    Default sword arts> Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu

    Cady,
    The Seuss post was magnificent. Does this secret pen stroke of yours have a name. Is it a secret mountain style? Seussuio Ryu?
    Kiro-Seuss?

    We are all Kazoo...shed.

    M.W. Jones
    MSR
    Mixed Bujustu
    1st kyu penjitsu

  12. #42
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    Thumbs up HA HA HA Oops ...

    Thanks Cady, your Dr. Seuss imitation is priceless! It also got me into trouble for laughing out loud when I'm supposed to be working. (again!)

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  13. #43
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    Default Re: sword arts> Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu

    Originally posted by M.W. Jones
    Cady,
    Does this secret pen stroke of yours have a name. Is it a secret mountain style? Seussuio Ryu?
    Kiro-Seuss?
    It's more like Seuss Army Knife

    cg
    Cady Goldfield

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