Hokushinkai Aikibujutsu/ Aiki Sen'yokai/ Tanemura Katsumi/ Edward Smith (Burns)

[wagnerphysed]

So...any news on a new web-site or any other source of information regarding the individual in question? Maybe SGT Craig E Johnson could fill us in on his teacher's lineage/credentials/ranking/certifications as he knows it?

[evvad]

I attend a 'Chokushin Aiki Jujutsu' school at the University of Waterloo.

While I don't know any more about the lineage of the school than any of you, I have a website that may help. It atleast has contact information and lots of names that may lead to more information.

I believe that this is the, err.. 'home page' of the style.

http://www.aiki-ju-jutsu.com/index.htm


I'll be happy to answer any specific questions you guys may have.
(btw, I have only been studying this martial art for the past year)

[judasith]

Originally Posted by rickfine

And where did the jutte techniques come from? According to Kondo Sensei, Daito-ryu never incorporated the jutte since law enforcement officials comprised a wholly separate social class than that from which Daito-ryu evolved.

These guys are frauds, at least in the sense of teaching "aikijujutsu", of that I believe there is little doubt. Would you really wear a black pijama to train seriously???

But it is NOT true that Daito-ryu does not incorporate jutte techniques! I practice Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu mainline from Kato Shigemitsu Sensei (over 30 years uchideshi of Takeda Tokimune, and technical director [=head of teachers] of the Daitokan for the last 11) in fact there are some even in the hiden mokuroku (in Gokajo, called juttedori, which is initially AGAINST an attacker with a jutte, while you are barehanded, and then you keep it and use it, finishing the kata). I also saw in an internal enbu 5 kata of juttejutsu, in which uchidachi uses a odachi (katana) and shidachi uses a jutte.

The main problem is, many of the purely weapon techniques of Daito-ryu got lost after Takeda Sensei passed away, and the others were scattered amongst his students... In the Seishinkai/Daitokai remains the weapon program of gokajo (the fifth series in the hiden mokuroku, a series comprised of a few standing jujutsu techniques, and a number of techniques of jujutsu against an uke using various weapons), which comprises tantodori, tachidori, bodori, juttedori, kasadori (tori defends while holding a jap. umbrella!), then in the other catalogues there are a few techniques of tankenjutsu (tanto), 5 kata of juttejutsu, just a couple of kata of toraejutsu (tying enemy with rope), kodachijutsu (which is called actually kodachi-waza, and is comprised of like a ten kata of idori and tachiai techniques in which both uke and tori use a wakizashi), shurikenjutsu (with a long and heavy bo-shuriken, not at all like the "ninja" you see teaching in the west), tessenjutsu (using a SOLID, not folding, iron fan), and the only remaining kenjutsu katas of Daito-ryu, which is called "battojutsu" (again, 5 katas).

Then there are some weapon katas that were there but that no one practices anymore, like sojutsu (spear; remaining in my association are just a couple of waza), bojutsu (rokushaku bo, I've never seen anyone still practicing it), then another type of training using bokken to deviate arrows, but that has not been practiced in the last 10 years (mostly because no one has interest in it).

Regarding Kondo Sensei telling that jutte isn't in Daito-ryu, well he also doesn't practice Ono-ha Itto-ryu. Leaving aside succession issues (about my opinion everyone knows what that is), Kondo S. always said to have received menkyo in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and not in Daito-ryu Aikibudo, which was the art taught and practiced by Takeda Tokimune Sensei, who used -budo instead of
-jujutsu because he also taught the weapon curriculum of the art and the Ono-ha Itto-ryu along. Then, like he doesn't practice Ono-ha Itto-ryu, he may as well not practice the 5 kata of jutteJUTSU, while he certainly must practice jutteDORI, which is in the hiden mokuroku, gokajo.

I hope I've been clear about this, even though slightly off topic

[rickfine]

Originally Posted by judasith

I practice Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu mainline from Kato Shigemitsu Sensei (over 30 years uchideshi of Takeda Tokimune, and technical director [=head of teachers] of the Daitokan for the last 11) in fact there are some even in the hiden mokuroku (in Gokajo, called juttedori, which is initially AGAINST an attacker with a jutte, while you are barehanded, and then you keep it and use it, finishing the kata). I also saw in an internal enbu 5 kata of juttejutsu, in which uchidachi uses a odachi (katana) and shidachi uses a jutte.

Welcome back, Judasith, and thank you for clarifying my remarks for me.

For your information, Kondo Sensei was giving me an enbu in his office during the course of this very conversation. I had purchased a jutte while shopping in Tokyo earlier in the day, which he used to demonstrate a range of techniques while describing the jutte's actual and symbolic role during the Edo period. His point (if I can do it justice in restating it on the internet) was that juttejutsu was not a root of Daito-ryu.

By the way, exactly two years ago to the day from your above post, you told readers of the Aikido Journal forum that your long-promised interview with Kato Sensei was ready, then rattled off a litany of excuses for your further delay in publication: you couldn't send it to him because the Abashiri dojo's fax was broken, the new secretary doesn't speak English, no one there has email, the only English-speaking student changed phone numbers, etc.: http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...nterview#55449. Surely you have at least mailed him a copy since then. Marco Polo himself could have hand-delivered it by now! As the saying goes, "Put up or shut up."

[judasith]

Well, it seemed strange to me that Kondo Sensei wouldn't practice jutte, since it is catalogued in hiden mokuroku's Gokajo! Now it is much more clear: he doesn't say juttedori isn't in Daito-ryu, he just personally thinks it was added at a later time? Did I take it right, this time? This said without any bad meaning, if I can express the idea correctly in English.

Regarding the interview with Kato Sensei, there was a change of plans; since the interview published on the net was considered too unofficial to be published correctly (I do not have any administrative roles in the Daitokai), we decided the following: now we're directly preparing a book about mainline Daito-ryu which will present precise background of all the teachers of the Seishinkai/Daitokai, and a lot of never before published material written directly by Takeda Tokimune Sensei himself, as well as photos of the Soke with Kato Sensei, the menkyo he awarded to him and to my Sensei, and a selection of techniques covering all the program of Daito-ryu Aikibudo (including weapons and Ono-ha Itto-ryu). It will NOT be an instructional book, but a book about Daito-ryu, its techniques and history, with new and very interesting material.
We're going back to Hokkaido probably next Easter for an handwritten preface of Kato Sensei, but we already begun translating the original material from Takeda Sensei and some parts of the book. Assuming we can easily find an English publisher, I hope the book will be ready by summer 2006.

A book is much more permanent and official than some posts by a student on some website, and should be quite interesting to anyone interested in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and Ono-ha Itto-ryu Kenjutsu, either for critics, scholars, or else.

Best regards and happy holydays,

Giacomo Merello

[rickfine]

Sorry, Judasith, but either you misunderstand me, or you prefer to jump to your own self-serving conclusions.

I would encourage you to pay more consideration to jutte history: Which class of public servants and officials actually used the jutte as a weapon, rather than a symbol of authority? Given the nature of their work and the risk involved, were they low-ranking or high-ranking? Did Daito-ryu come from the same class?

Maybe this explains why, by your own account, the jutte first appears in the Daito-ryu curriculum at gokajo, and then in only one technique. That's godan level, right? How long would a student train before learning juttedori? After all those years, he finally gets to brandish a jutte — as the attacker. That doesn't sound like much juttejutsu. On the contrary, it sounds like defense against juttejutsu.

Your allegations in general, including curriculum differences, have already been dealt with in this article by Ted Howell. If we can return to the original topic of this thread, perhaps we can find some room for agreement.

As I recall, this phony "Tanemura/Smith" group claimed that jutte was among their specializations. That claim was more of a red flag for me, than it was for you. Nonetheless, if someone were looking for a jutte school, would they turn to Daito-ryu? In your own group, for instance, how long must a student train before learning the 5 jutte vs. katana kata that you yourself have only seen performed in an internal enbu? The "Tanemura/Smith" group's claim strikes me as false advertising.

Likewise, their uniforms stuck out like a sore thumb. I don't find anything distasteful about black uniforms, per se, and certainly they are customary in other legitimate disciplines — but certainly not in Daito-ryu, which this group purported to teach.

May I ask one favor, Judasith? For reference, could you post the website urls for the "Tanemura/Smith" group, where you saw their uniforms? The original links at the beginning of this thread all seem to be broken. Thank you.

Happy holidays!

[judasith]

First, the website:
http://www.aiki-ju-jutsu.com/training.htm you can see especially in the first picture from the top it's not quite traditional...

Second, about Jutte and Gokajo in Daito-ryu:

-Just for being precise, the -dori techniques of Gokajo are not a SINGLE technique: for instance, under tachidori there are 5 techniques, under bodori there are 3, etc. etc.
So it is not only ONE technique, but many, all involving jutte. You can trust me on this or ask your Daito-ryu teacher; even if those techniques are listed as one name, there are at least 3 for every weapon.

-it is true that the techniques begin with uke attacking with the jutte, but almost all the techniques lead tori to steal it and use it against the attacker himself (sometimes in very nasty and painful ways), actually USING the jutte not just for delivering atemi.

-there is also a series of 5 katas of katana vs. jutte, which I can only describe as juttejutsu, and it is transmitted in Daito-ryu Aikibudo. When you study juttedori in Gokajo, they also teach you those, but I don't know if that is their exact position or if it is like shurikenjutsu taught as part of the whole system. In which exact period those techniques were added, I don't know.

-also, when these techniques were developed noone thought of "go-dan level" since dan ranking was added at a muuuch later time, anyway; it is to point out that while TODAY completing the study of the hiden mokuroku can be quite well considered an achievement, it is actually just the shoden level of the art as a system.

At last, I was only trying to help, not wanting at all to rise a flame about legitimacy which is not the point here; you don't have to defend something which was not attacked... surely saying "Kondo says there is no jutte in Daito-ryu" is SURELY wrong, then either he did not say that from the beginning or he was, like I understood it actually went, proposing his own historical view about how, when and to what extent jutte was included in the curriculum, but that it DID, that is for certain.

All this just so that there are correct information about Daito-ryu, and not for any subtle meaning an ill-disposed mind could suspect.

Regards,

Giacomo Merello

[rickfine]

Originally Posted by judasith

First, the website:
http://www.aiki-ju-jutsu.com/training.htm you can see especially in the first picture from the top it's not quite traditional...

I think this is an unrelated group, with a similar name but unconnected to the fakes who are the subject of this thread. I saw no mention of "Tanemura Katsumi" (apparently a fictional character) or Edward Smith, and their uniforms are completely different.

[Nathan Scott]

I've got an OT question for Giacomo:

What is the story with DR shurikenjutsu? I've heard of this before, and read references to Sokaku performing some shurikenjutsu, but have not really run into anything else about it. Do you know who incorporated it, where the methods came from originally, etc.?

Regards,

[judasith]

There are many weapon jutsu transmitted in Daito-ryu Aikibudo; most of them came from Takeda Sokaku, I believe.

I've always had interested in shurikenjutsu, and my teacher always told me in Daito-ryu it was taught as well.
So when I went to Hokkaido for the first time I crossed my fingers hoping they would show and teach me... well it happened the very first day I arrived! I studied and practiced Daito-ryu shurikenjutsu everyday for at least 2 hours a day, and at the end of each session Kato Sensei would come, see, and correct maybe a certain or certain other small (or larger) error I made. Today I still practice it, when I can (in the countryside) and during demonstrations in the open.

What I can tell you about it, is that we only use a kind of bo-shuriken, like a hashi to eat (chopstick), but quite beefier, and very heavy, in full iron or steel, with a roughly sharpened point. You use two different techniques (with or without "kaiten") if you are within 4 meters (which is, I believe 12-14 feet) from the target or not. There are a few kata, one for throwing "formally" and another to excersise your precision, for instance. They are very effective in piercing, since they are heavier than most other shurikens I've ever seen, but I guess they are still almost useless over 7 meters (20-25 feet) of distance from the target, which of course is a softer part of the human's body, like throat, hands, or else.

From what I've seen of Negishi-ryu Shurikenjutsu, ours is very similar in technique, while different in the type of shuriken. We know for sure Takeda Sokaku Sensei was a master of shurikenjutsu, and also had steel chopstick (very similar to the shuriken we use!) to use for atemi or throwing even while eating, but I don't know if this jutsu was incorporated in the art even before him.

[judoka0770]

This was posted a long time ago, and it seems that no one has been able to clarify this style. Please let me explain.

As a black belt in this particular style, I have spent a lot of time studying it's aspects, and when asking about the history of Chokushin had been dismissed.
m
Having moved on to Hatashita Judo, and watching other black belts performing kata, it would seem that Chokushin is a blend of Judo, Aikido and Daito-Ryu Ju jistu. Although I cannot cofirm Daito-Ryu it is apparent that the style is not in any way affiliated with any Authentic Japanese Ju Jitsu system.

It was a fun and very technically taught style. But lacks a robust curriculum. With no interest in grappling, professing that Ju jistu is not a ground art I would have to disagree. Also, claiming that this is a style that comes from sword play (and even has a sword in their emblem) do not focus any work in kenjutsu. A bit odd from my point of view.

The practitioners of Chokushin however are good people, and my time with them is valued. As a martial art with japanese heritage though, I can say it is not. It is a system assembled (like all martial arts are at some point) to reflect their interests and intentions.

I hope this shed some light on to this mystery.

Thanks.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. judoka0770,

Thanks for the post, but you need to sign all your posts with your full, real name, per forum policy you read and agreed to when creating an account here. This can be set up automatically in the "User CP" link (signature) at the top left of the screen. On the internet, posts without names attached are pretty much meaningless.

Regards,