Takeda-ryu / Ichio Oba (Seibuden) & Nakamura Hisashi (Nakamura-ha)

[muden]

Thanks Ron,

I'll ask around and look into the anniversary book.

In the meantime, is it possible for you to provide a brief summary of the lineage of the Ryu?

I find it fascinating that there is another "Aiki" school of jujutsu still extant. I think the existence of such a ryu would also have an impact on the current views about Daito Ryu.

(In light of the preceding reply, this probably should become a new thread?)

Regards,

Oisin Bourke

[Ron Beaubien]

Originally Posted by muden

In the meantime, is it possible for you to provide a brief summary of the lineage of the Ryu?

Sorry, but I'm working 12-hour days at the moment. I don't really have the time to struggle with the Chinese characters for names of people I am not familiar with. I really wouldn't have a clue how to pronounce or write their names in English unless I had the opportunity to talk to a practitioner of the school.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[muden]

Fair enough,

I'll look into it further when possible.

Regards,

Oisin Bourke

[George Kohler]

Originally Posted by Ron Beaubien

The group in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is under the direction of a Mr. Ikeda from Fukuoka Prefecture.

Mr. Ikeda as in 池田一晶 ?

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

It looks like the Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu group is turning out to laying claim to a branch of Takeda-ryu listed in the BRDJ (last listing on page 534 and continuing on page 535 in the 1978 edition). A partial translation of this is listed about mid-way down my post on page two of this thread. Also see George Kohler's post #57 on this page for further.

The lineage in the books shows Nakamura Aikisai Okichi transmitting the art to 10 of his students. One is Oba Mino (or Minoru), and another is Oba Ichio. Only Oba Ichio shows an additional transmission line under his name, which credits Oba Mino (or Minoru; Ichio's brother) and Oba Takeyuki (Ichio's son).

At least we now know which branch the Nakamura-ha is claiming a relationship to. Based on the lineage chart in the BRDJ, it looks like Oba Ichio (1899-1959) is listed as one of ten in the 38th generation of succession, although Takeda-ryu sources list him as the 43rd Soke (ca. 1935).

According to one Takeda-ryu web page, Oba Ichio died without naming a successor. This web page states that Nakamura Hisashi trained with Oba from 1950 (18 years old) to about 1953. Ca. 1953 Oba moved away, and Nakamura re-joined him again to train from 1956 until Oba's death in 1959 at 60 years old.

This adds up to Nakamura training for a total of about 6 years (from about 18 yrs old to about 23 years old) under Oba during the last decade of his life, after which, Nakamura founded his own branch of the art under his own authority.

The website goes on to say:

"In spite of his success teaching Takeda Budo, Nakamura was never officially acknowledged as the school’s heir by the Oba family. Others also laid claim to the school’s leadership, including Sato Kinbei who died in 1999 and in fact had been a member of Oba’s dojo long before Nakamura, but none of them could ever present an adequate document from the Oba family. As a result, the transmission of Takeda Ryu in a direct line ended with Oba Ichio in 1959. With this matter remaining unsettled, Nakamura eventually named his school Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha (Nakamura branch of the Takeda style) in 1978."

It looks like the most complete source online for this art is on the English language Wikipedia listing. It begins by stating that "Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha is a gendai (modern) martial art developed by Nakamura Hisashi in the mid to late 20th century":

Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha

One difference with the Wikipedia listing and the other webpage I listed above is that that Wikipedia listing claims Oba Sensei "died and appointed Moritomo Kazuo Sensei as successor", but that "Moritomo declined the position and appointed Nakamura Hisashi as the next Soke". Later in tihis same page it claims that "In 1990, Morimoto Kazuo sensei died, leaving Soke Nakamura as the last teacher of Koryu do Takeda Ryu Bujutsu". I wonder which one it correct?

Anyway, regardless of whether you believe a line of Takeda family aiki no jutsu methods was passed down through an alternate branch of the Takeda line, and that these teachings made it to Oba Ichio, it still doesn't sound like much of these teachings - if any - could have realistically made it past Oba to the current generation. The fact that this art is listed in the BRDJ is significant, but not proof in and of itself of legitimate transmission or claims (for any of the arts listed).

Takeda Tadakatsu (Nakamura Aikisai's teacher) supposedly is descended / branched away from Takeda Shingen's father (1493–1574). Takeda Tadakatsu is credited with inheriting the art in the beginning of the 20th century (ca. 1911). Upon his death, Nakamura Aikisai is claimed to have "received" the Takeda family aiki-no-jutsu scroll (?!?) There is then unsupported claims that Oba Ichio received a menkyo kaiden in these Takeda-ryu teachings, as well as in several other arts. Nakamura Hisashi in turn only studied for about 6 years as a young man, and I've yet to come across a source that states what level of initiation he is said to have obtained. Regardless, all sources indicate that Nakamura Hisashi then modernized the art he leaned to stay in keeping with the times.

I'm not sure how many other lines of "Takeda-ryu Aiki-no-jutsu" are being claimed in Japan, but this lineage I'm referencing from the BRDJ is the only one in it that makes claim to teaching aiki.

For further information about Nakamura-ha, their Takeda-ryu Japanese language webpage is now located here (all other links posted earlier in the thread appear to be dead now):
http://www.takedaryu.jp/

There is a Japanese Wikipedia entry on Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu here:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%...B0%97%E9%81%93

And an Japanese Wikipedia entry on Oba Ichio here:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...edit&redlink=1

HTH,

[carnops]

Hello,
I am very pleased to read your interesting posts.
As a member of this school, I hope I'll be able to bring some clarifications (depending of the depth of the questions.

Originally Posted by Nathan Scott

Nakamura Hisashi in turn only studied for about 6 years as a young man, and I've yet to come across a source that states what level of initiation he is said to have obtained.

As far as I know (sources are divergent), Nakamura Hisashi held Chuden Menkyo (some say Joden Menkyo) from Oba Ichio.

The reason why he registered the Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha and named his system Sobudo was to avoid the disappearance of the arts he learned in the Takeda-ryu, as no heir was officially appointed.

After the death of Oba Soke, there were two alive Kaiden Menkyo : Sato Kinbei and Kazuo Morimoto.

It seems that Kazuo Sensei, as the elder disciple of Oba Soke, was the highest ranked teacher of the school, but he refused to assume the continuity of the teaching.

Sato Sensei eventually received the densho but he refused to continue the school.

When Nakamura Hisashi decided to continue the teaching, both of them agreed to his proposition but didn't want to get involved in the development of the school. It seems that Sato Sensei had an oral agreement with Nakamura Hisashi stating he would receive the densho after his death.

When Sato Sensei passed away, there were a disagreement between Sato Sensei's succession and Nakamura Hisashi concerning the conditions for the densho's transmission.

I cannot actually confirm that this situation will change and I will post something here if there's any change in the future.

Concerning the Wikipedia article, it was posted by a study group leader but should be considered as a draft to be completed and sourced, but it is actually the more neutral in content.

Nevertheless, thanks to Nathan Scott for his objective research.

In my opinion, the most documented lineage can be found here :
http://www.takedaryu.com/index.php/a...age-chart.html

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Stephane,

Thanks for your post.

Here is another link worth looking at from the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai:

http://www.nihonkobudokyoukai.org/martialarts/078/

Regards,

[carnops]

Hello Nathan,

I had some difficulties to read your link, as I don't read japanese enough to understand, but I had an overview with a translation tool (not really efficient but I was able to understand).

I heard once about the person mentionned on the NKK but I've no information about him, except what is told on the NKK website and a brief evocation in a conversation with a shihan who went often to Japan during the last year.

I forgot to mention one important point ; if the succession of Nakamura Hisashi is a matter of controversy for many people, not to say that the lines that follow in the chart linked in my previous post is even more controversial.

I heard about a lineage in the japanese governmental archives too, but I didn't see it by myself so I can't develop.

I hope to be able to talk a little about history with Soke (Nakamura) when he'll come.

Best regards,

[Nathan Scott]

The person mentioned in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai link is Ikeda Kazuaki ( 池田一晶 ), who is based out of Fukuoka, Kyushu. Not sure about the translation of the first name though.

[carnops]

Hello,

I have found new informations about our lineage.

http://www.takedabudo.com/genealogie/

This is a translation of the BRDJ 1979 edition done by a Japanese.

Regards,

[George Kohler]

Originally Posted by Nathan Scott

The person mentioned in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai link is Ikeda Kazuaki ( 池田一晶 ), who is based out of Fukuoka, Kyushu. Not sure about the translation of the first name though.

Looks like the next in line for this school is Hikage (日影渉 - Sorry don't know the pronunciation of the given name).

[Nathan Scott]

I ended up doing a little research on some of this stuff recently, sort of by accident. Following is a more complete history of Takeda-ryu, copied from the link a couple of posts back, which may or may not be translated from the corresponding entry in the Bugei Ryuha Daijten (I haven't checked it yet):

http://www.takedabudo.com/genealogie/

The art of AIKI of the TAKEDA School is first documented in the 12th century as "TAKEDA RYU AIKI NO JUTSU", but its origins go much further back in history. SOKE NAKAMURA, current head of the school TAKEDA RYU NAKAMURA HA, quoted the following passage from the records on the TAKEDA School:

In the 27th year of the reign of the twelfth TENNO (emperor) by the name of KEIKO (KEIGYO), the KUMASO tribe rebelled. As a result, the heir to the throne, YAMATO TAKERU NO MIKOTO, was sent on an expedition to punish the KUMASO. On his way, he performed a cleansing ceremony at KAMIYO waterfall. He placed his feet on the rocky floor of the waterfall, spread his arms wide, was filled with the power of the spirit and gathered the entire strength of his body in his fingertips. Turning towards heaven, he executed several upward blows, then let his hands drop and struck out powerfully several times with his arms. After the prince had completed these movements, he decided to attack the KUMASO. Disguised as a woman, he crept into the enemy’s camp and there roused the sleeping leader of the KUMASO. When the leader tried to attack him, the prince opened his arms, was filled with spiritual strength and threw the KUMASO leader to the ground, having already snatched his sword from him. This technique of spreading one’s arms and throwing down one’s opponent was the beginning of AIKI.

Thereafter, the prince studied diligently and passed on his skills to TAKEDA NO KIMI NO MIKOTO for the protection of the palace.

Passed on by the sixth son of emperor SEIWA, called SADAZUMI, this knowledge was transferred by his son TSUNEMOTO in turn to the father of the famous general MINAMOTO NO YOSHIMITSU (from the GENJI = MINAMOTO family) and finally to YOSHIMITSU himself, who is considered the father of AIKI. Tradition has it that in Emperor SEIWA’s day and even more so during the reign of his son SADAZUMI, with their bare hands warriors executed blows like sword strikes on parts of the body either unprotected or poorly protected by armour. To this day, such techniques are a characteristic part of AIKIDO in the TAKEDA style, for example in the form of the AIKI-UCHI (AIKI form of strikes).

Under General YOSHIMITSU from the powerful MINAMOTO family who founded the KAMAKURA shogunate, the traditional techniques of AIKI were further improved and developed into a system for the first time.

His son YOSHIKYO added techniques that could be used against assailants bearing both long and short swords. For practice, he had his warriors fight unarmed against well-trained sword fighters as well as against men armed with NAGINATA (halberds) and other weapons of different lengths. Through this practice, they learned to observe carefully but quickly, they also perfected their coordination between eye and movements, as well as the ability to gauge distances accurately and to move quickly aside, a method that was customary in some cases under TSUNEMOTO.

YOSHIKYO was ordered to move to the province of KAI (now YAMANASHI) to protect it. He settled there, changed his name to TAKEDA, founding the branch of the family called "KAI-GENJI-TAKEDA". From then on, the family’s fighting skills became known as "TAKEDA RYU AIKI NO JUTSU" (the art of AIKI of the TAKEDA family).

The 16th century

Saw the heyday and the end of the supremacy of the TAKEDA family, whose most famous prince was TAKEDA SHINGEN. At that time a second branch of the Takeda family began, which like the original branch (GENRYU) also exists to this day.

NOBUTORA was the head of the TAKEDA family in the first half of the 16th century. In about 1570, the records of the TAKEDA School were given not to his first son SHINGEN, but to his ninth son NOBUTOMO, who in turn passed them on to his son KATSUCHIYO. KATSUCHIYO moved to the KURODA tribe in ECHIZEN (now FUKUOKA) where he secretly trained his descendants in the art of AIKI. By doing so he helped preserve the existence of the main branch (GENRYU) of the TAKEDA School to this day.

Development of the collateral branch
(Daito-ryu)

TAKEDA SHINGEN became one of the most famous men in the history of Japan because of his victories in the civil war. However, he was of minor importance to the survival of the TAKEDA School.

SHINGEN died in 1573 in the civil war. His death marked the end of the power of the TAKEDA family. A year later one of SHINGEN’s brothers, TAKEDA KUNITSUGU, went to the principality of AIZU to serve the tribe by the same name. Through him, aspects of the art of AIKI were passed on to the AIZU clan. Due to the losses suffered by the TAKEDA family, KUNITSUGU decided to change his name to DAITO. This new branch of the family was therefore called the DAITO branch (DAITO-RYU).

The DAITO School, founded in the 16th century, still exists today, as does the main school, which has been called the TAKEDA School since the 12th century. This passing on of the tradition, writes SOKE NAKAMURA in his book on AIKIDO, is also described in the "NIHON BUDO JITEN" (reference work on schools and martial arts).

The 19th century

After the ravages of the civil war in the 16th century, which affected the development of the school, the TAKEDA School remained hidden in the shadows of history for more than 300 years. When a historically decisive shift occurred during the MEJI restoration and the government forbade the carrying of swords in 1876, the TAKEDA School revived. Its teachings came to light again when in era of the 41st generation of the TAKEDA family (the era of TAKEDA TADAKATSU) a few young men formed a group called "GENYOSHA" (Association of the Black Ocean) for political reasons and started doing AIKIDO exercises. In the 42nd generation, the school was transferred to the NAKAMURA YOSHITOSHI family and in the 43rd generation to the OBA ICHIO family.

The 20th century

In the 20th century an outstanding individual, SOKE HISASHI NAKAMURA, influenced the TAKEDA School.

He was born in SHINSHU in 1932 and moved to live with his aunt in northern KYUSHU in 1949. He had found out that a DOJO (school) for TAKEDA martial arts existed on YAGURA Mountain. It was the school run by SOKE OBA ICHIO, headmaster of the 43rd generation. In spring 1950 NAKAMURA, with two recommendations, became a student of master OBA. SOKE OBA ICHIO always ensured that the school’s teachings were passed on only to a small group. After three years (in 1953) NAKAMURA became an UCHI-DESHI ("in-house student"), living with SOKE OBA ICHIO. Soon after that, ICHIO moved to Tokyo, where he founded the SEIBUDEN DOJO as the new headquarters of the TAKEDA School and the NIPPON BUDO RENREN, an association for the revival of the BUDO.

The young NAKAMURA was not called to Tokyo until 1957. Master MORIMOTO, ICHIO’s deputy, had to move back to the country due to family obligations, and so NAKAMURA assumed his position as deputy, which had been his greatest wish.

OBA died in 1959 without naming a successor. The SEIBUDEN DOJO had to be closed, but in 1960 NAKAMURA, who now lived only for the BUDO, started to build his own organization to keep alive the great, old tradition of TAKEDA RYU.

When he became head of the school, the decision on passing on its teachings were solely in the hands of the new SOKE NAKAMURA. He realized that the school could only survive if a larger group of people had access to the school’s teachings. As a result, he decided to teach the TAKEDA School on a widespread basis.

Thus began ten very difficult but latterly fruitful years, in which individual schools and associations (including those at universities) and organizations like the independent "BUDOKAI" were established. In 1970 it was renamed the "Japan Complete Martial Arts Association", "NIHON SOBUDO RENGOKAI" (NSR), with its headquarters HONBU SOBUKAN in Tokyo.

In 1978 SOKE NAKAMURA officially registered the school as TAKEDA RYU NAKAMURA HA. His name accordingly became inextricably linked to the school.

Today his organization includes numerous schools, clubs and youth and student organizations. While in the Seventies his work focused on reviving the school and spreading its teachings in Japan, the Eighties saw internationalization and the establishment of schools outside Japan. As the preserver and reviver of the TAKEDA school, with his lifework SOKE NAKAMURA already has a place in the history of BUDO, the traditions of which are part of Japan’s cultural legacy.

The part I was stumbling over recently involved the first two paragraphs, which clearly makes reference to a mythical / historical episode that is recorded in both the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki (oldest historical records of Japan). However, the details as it pertains to "aiki" are quite different (I found and reviewed the episode in both books). Following is a translation of this same episode from the Kojiki:

CHAPTER 79

PRINCE WO-USU [Yamato Takeru no Mikoto] KILLS HIS ELDER BROTHER AND IS SENT BY EMPEROR KEIKO TO CONQUER THE TWO BROTHERS KUMASO-TAKERU.

The emperor said to Wo-Usu-no-mikoto : "Why does your elder brother not come to the morning and evening meals? Take it upon yourself to teach and admonish him." After this had been said, five days passed, but he still did not come. The emperor then asked Wo-Usu-no-mikoto: "Why has your elder brother not come for such a long time? Is it perhaps that you have not yet admonished him?" He replied : "I have already entreated him." Then he said: "In what manner did you entreat him?" He replied: ''Early in the morning when he went into the privy, I waited and captured him, grasped him and crushed him, then pulled off his limbs, and wrapping them in a straw mat, threw them away." At this, the emperor was terrified at the fearless, wild disposition of this prince and said :

"Toward the west, there are two mighty men called Kumaso-takeru. They are unsubmissive, disrespectful people. Therefore go and kill them." [Thus saying], he dispatched him. At this time, he was still a youth wearing his hair up on his forehead. Then Wo-usu-no-mikoto received from his aunt Yamato-hime-no-mikoto an upper garment and a skirt and, with a small sword in his bosom, set out.

CHAPTER 80

WO-USU-NO-MIKOTO, DISGUISED AS A WOMAN, VANQUISHES THE BROTHERS KUMASO-TAKERU. HE IS GIVEN THE TITLE YAMATO-TAKERU.

When he arrived at the house of the Kumaso-takeru, he found that the house was surrounded by three rows of warriors, and that they were building a pit dwelling and were inside it. At the time there was a great deal of noise about the coming feast [celebrating] the new pit dwelling, and food was being prepared. Walking around the vicinity, he waited for the day of the feast.

When the day of the feast arrived, he combed his hair down in the manner of a young girl's and put on the upper garment and the skirt of his aunt. Thus, completely taking on a young girl's appearance, he mingled with the women and went into the pit dwelling. Then the two Kumaso-takeru, the elder and the younger, looked with admiration at this maiden and had her sit between them as the festivities continued. Then, when [the feast] was at its height, [Wo-usu-no-mikoto] took his sword from his bosom and, seizing the Kumaso's collar, stabbed him clear through the chest. Then the younger Takeru , seeing this, was afraid and ran out. Pursuing him to the foot of the stairs leading out of the pit dwelling, he seized him by the back, took the sword, and stabbed him clear through from the rear. Then Kumaso-takeru said : "Do not move the sword. I have something to say."

Then holding him down, he allowed it for a while. Then [Kumaso] said : "Who are you, my lord?" Whereupon [Yamato] said : "I am the son of Emperor Opo-tarasi-osiro-no-mikoto, who dwells in the palace of Pisiro and rules Opo-ya-shima-guni; and my name is Yamato-woguna-no-miko. Hearing that you Kumaso-takeru Were unsubmissive and disrespectful, he dispatched me to kill you." Then Kumaso-takeru said: "Indeed this must be true. For in the west there are no brave, mighty men besides us. But in the land of Opo-yamato there is a man exceeding the two of us in bravery! Because of this I will present you with a name. May you be known from now on as Yamato-takeru-no-miko!"

After he had finished saying this, [Wo-usu-no-mikoto] killed him, slicing him up like a ripe melon. From that time, he was called Yamato-takeru-no-mikoto to praise his name. Then as he returned, he subdued and pacified all of the mountain deities, river deities, and deities of the sea-straits.

This episode is recorded in the Kojiki in Chapters 79 & 80 (and in the Nihon Shoki, Book VII Chapters 18 & 19).

Emperor Keiko was the 12th Emperor, who reigned from the years of 71-130. The Nihon Shoki and Kojiki briefly mention the birth of someone named "Takeda no Miko" (Prince of Takeda), a son of Emperor Bidatsu (30th Emperor, reigned 572-585), but neither mention anyone named “Takeda no Kimi no Mikoto”, nor could I find a connection between either of them and Yamato Takeru no Mikoto (who lived several hundred years before them).

The term “aiki” does not appear in the Kojiki or the Nihon Shoki. But more importantly, neither does the reference to Yamato visiting the Kamiyo waterfall, spreading his arms and being filled with the power of spirit, or throwing the Kumaso down and taking his sword away. What is mentioned is crushing his enemies, pulling their arms off, and cutting them up like ripe melons. In fact, Yamato was revered for his extreme level of aggression and violence of action. In other words, I don't see anything in this story or the history of Yamato Takeru no Mikoto in the Kojiki or Nihon Shoki that gives any indication of "ki" cultivation or "aiki".

So, what is the original source of the Takeda-ryu version of a story that took place during the period of ca. 97? The Kojiki was written ca. 712, and the Nihon Shoki ca. 720. The episode in the Nihon Shoki is consistent with that in the Kojiki, though the Nihon Shoki gives a bit more details.

Furthermore, I can't find an independent reference to anyone named "Takeda no Kimi no Mikoto" at all. And where is "Takeda-ryu Aiki no Jutsu" documented from in the 12th Century? What document? I presume this is a reference to the generation of Shinra Saburo (Minamoto Yoshimitsu). I picked up Japanese history books for the Biwa area where he and his brother were based out of, and there is just not much recorded about his life in them (his brother Minamoto Yoshiie was much more famous).

Nakamura Aikisai was a member of the Genyosha (Dark/Black Ocean Society) and taught martial arts only to this ultra-nationalist right-wing group.

BTW, Yoshida Kotaro from Daito-ryu was also a member of this group. Perhaps in reality Nakamura was exposed to some amount of Daito-ryu from Yoshida, or at least the idea of Takeda-ryu, from this connection?

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

The BRDJ listing referenced from the Takeda-ryu webpage actually contains a much shorter history than what is contained in the "records of the Takeda-ryu" as quoted by Nakamura Hisashi of Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha.

A quick translation / summary of the BRDJ listing is as follows:

Takeda-ryu (aiki, jujutsu, tsue, tessen) - Shinra Saburo is considered the founder. Takeda Nobutoki and Takeda Nobumune are also listed in the transmission (see "keizu" thread).

Takeda Yoshikiyo became the first generation of Kai-Genji Takeda upon moving to Kai province (now Yamanashi). The 24th Generation was Takeda Nobutora (father of 1st son Takeda Shingen), who taught his 9th son Takeda Nobutomo (25th Generation) and his grandson (Nobutomo's 1st son) Takeda Katsuchiyo (26th Generation). Later, Nobutora was exiled from the Takeda family by his son Takeda Shingen, at which time he moved to Suruga. Katsuchiyo moved to Kyushu and stayed with the Kuroda clan. There he passed down the art in Kyushu.

The last headmaster listed was Nakamura Aikisai Okichi, who was succeeded by (10) students. The 43rd Generation was Oba Ichio (real name was Oba Takeyuki; one of Nakamura Aikisai's 10 students listed), who also held menkyo in Hoen-ryu jujutsu, Kukishin-ryu sogo bujutsu, and Shinto-ryu iaido. He was succeeded by his son Oba Takeyuki, and his brother Oba Minoru.

There is no mention of the ancient mythical history, etc.

HTH,

[Kendoguy9]

Interesting work Nathan. Maybe i'm misreading but it sounds like the Takeda-ryu is the product of the 8th century according to this history. I was under the impression the name Takeda wasn't taken up by a member of the Minamoto until the 11th century with Yoshikiyo (as the history states). However it seems weird that the 2nd person to study aiki was a Takeda no Kimi no Mikoto. I feel like this is a little revisionist history trying to strengthen what is really a very weak historical positon.

I wish some of these groups could produce documentation besides lineage charts. Genealogy is seldom a very useful science when studying history and it is often used to tie people to events that had little or no influence on their lives (even if they wanted them to). Even Takeda Sokaku did this. In absence of any documentation you throw out a family tree to tie what you do to the past.

In my own case I have ancestors that came from Holland to the US in the late 18th cent. and they were some sort of businessmen (not exactly sure what they did). I feel if I were to create some sort of business and attempted to tie my business to those Dutchmen, claiming it was est. in 1795, same product, same family ownership, etc. I would be considered a fraud today inspite of the quality of my product. Even if i were able to find history books that mentioned those same people it would not legitimize my actions any more.

BTW, Nathan been really busy at work, I'll try to get a hold of you soon.

best regards,

[Nathan Scott]

Hey Chris,

Nice to hear from you. I was starting to get worried.

Yeah, I have to admit that the whole Takeda-ryu Aiki no Jutsu background just keeps getting more suspicious.

The funny thing, that I keep saying about the Daito-ryu background, is that while none of it can be "proven" to be true, at the same time nothing in the factual history of Japan has come up to discredit any of it either. In fact, the more I dig, the more I find evidence that supports the *possibility* of the Daito-ryu historical claims. That is a good sign.

On the other hand, you've got arts like Takeda-ryu, Saigo-ha, and Hapkido that have unsupported histories that research has proven to be in error due to conflicts with known facts. Conflicts with known facts is a pretty strong indicator of fabrication.

As a disclaimer, the subject of background and legitimacy we are discussing currently does not mean that any of the aforementioned arts couldn't have valuable things to offer, or that the exponents are not skilled martial artists.

Regards,