Regarding Performing Noto During Iaido...

[Ron Beaubien]

. Several summers ago, I was doing some sword drawing, techniques that are a personal study, using Toda-ha Buko-ryu principals. The reishiki at the end of THBR forms (this explanation, obviously, is not for you, Ron ), includes thrusting the sword with the "left side" of the shinoji/mune sliding across the supporting left hand (see V. III of Koryu Bujutsu by Skoss - everyone should have a copy anyway - for a picture of Nitta Suzuyo doing this movement).

Thanks for the interesting anecdote about what moisture did to your sword.

For our viewers at home who are probably not familiar with Toda-ha Buko-ryu techniques, I just wanted to quickly point out the picture on page 64 of Keiko Shokon, the third volume of the Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan series, that Ellis is referring to, is unfortunately showing the exact opposite of what he has described above.

I took that picture, and several others in the book, using transparency (slide) film because digital cameras at the time were still not able to match the quality of 35mm flim. The slides were then sent to the US where the publisher had them scanned by a professional company. Apparently, that company was lazy and didn't bother to take the film out of the mounts before scanning (which is necessary with a positive image in order to see the film frame numbers to make sure you are scanning the correct side of the slides), and therefore they mistakenly created digital copies of the photos that were completely backwards.

Somehow, the backwards images made it through the editorial process without being noticed. After taking the original pictures, I didn't see the images again until after they appeared in print, and by that time it was too late.

Besides the sword being held in the wrong hand, you can also tell which images were printed backwards by looking at the eri, or collar, of the uwagi. The uwagi is always worn left over right, and not the opposite way, except when you are dressing a corpse.

As you can imagine, a lot of apologies had to be made over that mistake.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[renfield_kuroda]

That is also what bothered me. While there are certainly many differences between schools in how they perform noto, it seems that just about all of them do indeed use the left hand to cover the koiguchi, pinch the blade, slide the mune along the skin, or in other words "touch the blade," in order to guide the blade through the koiguchi when returning the sword to the saya. I couldn't see any difference between classical and modern schools in this regard, although it is possible that I am missing something.

I stand by my blanket statement about blanket statements. First, there are many kenjutsu koryu which do not even include noto as part of the actual curriculum. Wiping the bits of meat and blood off of your blade using your dead enemy's kimono also isn't part of some koryu, and it was certainly a technique used back in the day.
Second, as one example, in Mugairyu Iaihoydo Meishi-ha and a couple of other branches, an advanced noto is called a kissaki noto; the kissaki goes directly into the koiguchi with no contact from the left hand. Quite difficult to do well, and a bit dangerous to attempt if you don't have the control necessary.

So again, not to pick on James but Nami-ryu is a modern invention, and as far as I know he only studies a couple of koryu sword arts besides. So his knowledge is no more extensive than mine. It may well be true that every art you and/or James have ever seen touches the sword somehow with the left hand. That does not make it true for all arts.

Regards,

r e n

[paul manogue]

In YSKR batto, (Edo Yagyu, not Seigo ryu) we have 9 chiburi variations, all of them come in contact with some part of the left hand, most often the mine to the left index finger in front of the koiguchi.

The only time the mine or mune do not come in contact with the hand is during a 2 sword technique with the katana in the left hand and the wakizashi in the right.

For beginers, including myself, we put the wakizashi away first, without touching the blade at all, and then do a standard for the katana where the index finger touches the mine.

However, for the more experieneced there is a way to resheath both simultaneously without touching either blade, it may just be a trick of experience, but its a cool trick.

It also seems that with experience there is very little contact with the hand as our chiburi are mostly done vertically ( if this doesnt make sense please watch http://www.flatfishdesign.com/yagyu/iaijutsuBW.mov ) Not that I did it in this video, but I can often drop the kissaki right into the koiguchi without it touching my hand, however, this is not the goal, just a byproduct of training.

[pgsmith]

Based on other parts of your post, I think maybe what you meant is none advocate actually coming into contact with the ha?

You're absolutely correct Charles. I was talking about touching the mune and shinogi-ji as opposed to reaching out to the ha. Of course, what Ren said is very valid, blanket statements are bad news in the Japanese sword arts!

Second, as one example, in Mugairyu Iaihoydo Meishi-ha and a couple of other branches, an advanced noto is called a kissaki noto; the kissaki goes directly into the koiguchi with no contact from the left hand. Quite difficult to do well, and a bit dangerous to attempt if you don't have the control necessary.

Hey Ren,
Wouldn't that be considered simply advanced technique, rather than an actual attempt to avoid touching the blade?

The only school that I have seen that truly advocate never touching the blade is Lovret's Tenshin ryu. They place the kissaki directly into the koiguchi from the very beginning.

[Ron Beaubien]

Renfield,

Thanks for the information on the advanced level kissaki noto in Mugairyu Iaihoydo Meishi-ha.

First, there are many kenjutsu koryu which do not even include noto as part of the actual curriculum.

No argument there. However, rather than talking about schools that may contain kenjutsu alone and perhaps only use bokuto, I was trying to discuss noto used in classical schools that contain iai and ideally would be using live blades, as iaito wouldn't be damaged by moisture from the hands anyway.

I stand by my blanket statement about blanket statements. It may well be true that every art you and/or James have ever seen touches the sword somehow with the left hand. That does not make it true for all arts.

I totally agree. Just to clarify in case I was misunderstood, I was specifically trying to avoid making a blanket statement by using the words: "...it seems that just about all of them..." (i.e. not all of them, but a majority) in the section of text that you quoted.

I was trying to say, and speaking in the broadest terms, that it appears that there are more schools that do touch the blade in one way or another than those that don't touch it at all, and my comment was made in response to James Williams' claim that touching the blade is "incorrect from a classical perspective" because it would damage the blade.

I'm not surprised, and happy to learn of any exceptions I might add, that there are schools in which noto is sometimes performed without touching the blade. Heck, I've seen someone score a three point shot in basketball by hurling the ball with one hand clear across the court from one side to the other and the ball never even touched the rim of the hoop when it went through. I'm sure something similar could be done in iai at a higher level and even consistently performed quite well.

However, I would be more surprised to learn of classical schools that as a whole their practitioners do not touch the blade at all in their training, because they considered it to be incorrect as it would damage the blade. I don't doubt that that some may exist, but I have serious doubts about how prevalent those schools might be, compared to the others.

Thanks again,

Ron Beaubien

[John Lovato]

It seems the correct answer is some do and some don't. And neither is wrong or bad. Most koryu Iv'e seen do touch the blade. I was taught in Yanagi Ryu and Shindo Yoshin Ryu not to touch the blade during noto and that works fine for me.

[pgsmith]

I was taught in Yanagi Ryu and Shindo Yoshin Ryu not to touch the blade during noto and that works fine for me.

Cool John! Do you mind my asking how it's done in general terms? Do you guys insert kissaki directly into the koiguchi? If so, is it from the side or in front?

Just nosey!

[John Lovato]

It's hard to explain but, we start by bringing the habaki to the koiguchi, making sure they are aligned and then we thrust the kashira towards the ground. As we thrust the kashira we move the saya back, stopping both movements as the tip of the sword drops into the koiguchi. It sounds really difficult but if you do it all the time it really takes no effort or thought. We also have a horizontal version that is a little more difficult.

[bushikan]

It's hard to explain

This is a sounds like a job for youtube.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ibKCaHSJn4I

Here are more examples of noto:
This is a demonstration in Yasakuni Jinja last August. Included in this video is Shindo Munen Ryu (Shoden Tachi iai: Ipponmae), Muso Shinden Ryu and ZNKR Seitei Gata, and Matsui Ha Sosuishi Ryu Koshi no Mawari.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MOegREeNEzY

hope this helps

[pgsmith]

Thanks John!
That was a good enough explanation that I think I can picture just what you're talking about. Still sounds difficult to learn to do correctly though.

[Maro]

Isn't it true that shinken weren't as polished as most blades are today?

It would make the no touching thing a moot point.

[kenkyusha]

Drawing a mune with burrs (from receiving too far beyond the shinogi, so that the other blade actually digs into the softer steel of the spine) across the koko held at the koiguchi, can be like dragging a blunt saw (unpleasant). Not making contact with flesh can be beneficial in those cases.

Be well,
Jigme

[Nii]

I reckon when James Williams said the "blade" he actually meant the "ha" of the shinken. Then it all makes perfect sense.

[pgsmith]

That is a very excellent point Jigme.

[Tom Karazozis]

We should not forget that, not only do we see many Koryu perform noto by dragging the mune along the hand(about where the 1st Interossei dorsal is situated) and create a slight pinch with the thumb and index finger, but we also see alot of touchin' of the blade in various waza in many different "classical" schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBox1dnEd4

I see alot of touchin' going on in these waza performed by Otake sensei.
So, not touching the blade is NOT a "classical perspective", it's a James williams perspective.