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Thread: doggies and kitties...

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    Default doggies and kitties...

    please watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtjJSwIeJjc

    seriously, this is a game, but i'm just wondering, are there instances that domesticated house animals(not horses or livestock or birds) participated in battles or operations? especially involving iga-/koga-shu?
    Griff Lockfield

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    - BUSHIDO by Inazo Nitobe

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    Dogs back then could be used for the same things they are used for now. Dogs are and were great for security and also their noses. While I'm not sure if dogs were trained to find specific scents in the past (Don't know if people had the insight to think of doing that or not back then) but certainly dogs would be used to sniff out people trying to hide and chasing criminals/people of interest.

    I'd guess that a lot of times though a dog would be more of a burden than anything except to the rich or people who had exceptional need for one. Until very recent times dogs have been luxury items that require more food / money to keep alive than most people could offer.
    Cory Burke
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    theres a section in shinpi reikon kuchiyose no jutsu that has techniques for using rats for ninjutsu, no dogs or cats though
    Quote Originally Posted by Lockfield View Post
    please watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtjJSwIeJjc

    seriously, this is a game, but i'm just wondering, are there instances that domesticated house animals(not horses or livestock or birds) participated in battles or operations? especially involving iga-/koga-shu?
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
    Bujinkan Keiko Dojo
    Owner www.korisuya.com Ninjutsu tools

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baio View Post
    theres a section in shinpi reikon kuchiyose no jutsu that has techniques for using rats for ninjutsu, no dogs or cats though
    For what sort of thing? The things I can think they'd be best at would be chewing through wood, fouling enemy food supplies, messing with morale. I don't think anyone had the kind of microbiological knowledge needed to use them as disease vectors, and anyway, that sort of thing could so easily backfire...
    Trevor Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson View Post
    I don't think anyone had the kind of microbiological knowledge needed to use them as disease vectors,
    Hmm... I've read that during the middle ages, carcases of animals and even humans believed to have died of plague were catapulted over city walls during sieges. I don't know if all of these corpses would have actually been contagious, but I'm sure that the attackers believed that they were, and that having a plague-corpse hurled into a sealed-off city did little to improve local moral. I wonder if the rats could have been used in a similar way; it might all hinge on whether or not the Japanese of the time associated rats with disease.
    David Sims

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS View Post
    Hmm... I've read that during the middle ages, carcases of animals and even humans believed to have died of plague were catapulted over city walls during sieges. I don't know if all of these corpses would have actually been contagious, but I'm sure that the attackers believed that they were, and that having a plague-corpse hurled into a sealed-off city did little to improve local moral. I wonder if the rats could have been used in a similar way; it might all hinge on whether or not the Japanese of the time associated rats with disease.
    They did, yes, but then, the siege camps often were ravaged by massive diseases as well. Cholera, for example.

    And it's not the rats with disease thing, it's the correct understanding of rats and fleas as disease vectors, unless you're talking about rabies. And fleas are not easy to control. Try that sort of thing with primitive equipment, and you'll get it too!
    Trevor Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson View Post
    And it's not the rats with disease thing, it's the correct understanding of rats and fleas as disease vectors, unless you're talking about rabies.
    Right. I think my point is just that it's possible that the Japanese superstitiously linked rats with disease even without understanding how they actually function as vectors. I seem to recall something-- and I might be getting my mythologies mixed up-- about sickness demons appearing as rats or somesuch. If that were the case, they might have tried to use rats to spead disease even without actually understanding what they were doing. These attempts might not have even succeeded, but if their opponents also saw rats as a sort of disease-omen, it would have had a moral effect. If you read ancient histories, you'll find passages where the authors attribute one side's victory in battle to things that we both know wouldn't actually work-- but the people back then didn't know that they didn't work, so they tried them anyway, and the historians didn't know that they couldn't work, so when they wrote up the history they focused on that detail since it made a good story.

    Anyway, all this is just speculation, since I don't even know yet what they thought they were actually using the rats for.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    i put the first 50 pages of shinpi reikon kushiyose no jutsu on photobucket if anyone is interested in reading it, the book is impossible to find i only know one other person who has a copy
    http://s516.photobucket.com/albums/u...%20no%20jutsu/
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
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    DDatfus posted
    Hmm... I've read that during the middle ages, carcases of animals and even humans believed to have died of plague were catapulted over city walls during sieges. I don't know if all of these corpses would have actually been contagious, but I'm sure that the attackers believed that they were, and that having a plague-corpse hurled into a sealed-off city did little to improve local moral.
    No, not plagued animals. Even going near them to load them on a catapult (Trebuchet) would be hazardous. They used rotting carcases and hurled them over the walls of castles in the hope of geting them in the water supply. Although of course they did stink.

    Incidently during WW2 after D Day, more than one german soldier was made to retreat after having the cow he was sitting behind (Lots of rotting cows in France which would become inflated with gas) become victim to a snipers rifle.

    BOOM, and the german is covered in stinking intestines.

    The Romans and Barbarians (Celts, Gauls, Etc) used dogs quite often, and in the archaeological record the dog represents the earliest domesticated animal.

    Not much about cats unfortuantely.

    Garth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baio View Post
    theres a section in shinpi reikon kuchiyose no jutsu that has techniques for using rats for ninjutsu, no dogs or cats though
    how does that work? i mean, for attack or diversion(like shuriken).

    and another question: are attack dogs only a recent innovation?
    Griff Lockfield

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    - BUSHIDO by Inazo Nitobe

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    and another question: are attack dogs only a recent innovation?
    No both the Romans and Celts used them.

    Garth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur View Post

    Not much about cats unfortuantely.

    Garth
    Well, of course not. Cats do what they want far too often. In modern warfare, there've been cases of using bats carrying firebombs to attack enemy bases and dogs carrying bombs to dive under tanks. The bats, if I recall correctly, returned to home base and firebombed IT, instead of the enemy, while the dogs - having been trained by Soviets on mockups of Soviet tanks - when released against German tanks, did exactly what they were trained to do and dived under the Soviet tanks. BOOM!
    Trevor Johnson

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    I remember reading a story where a group trying to infiltrate a castle released domestic cats to distract the guards.

    Not sure about it's authenticity but i'm pretty sure a cat-a-pult could cause a big distraction.

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    One of the old Black Medicine books by the nom-de-plume N.Mashiro PhD suggested using pets as weapons, including throwing a cat into the face of an intruder and tongue-in-cheekily (I hope) holding a toy poodle by the back legs and using it as a club!

    They don't write 'em like that any more!
    Adam C R Hurley -
    I know nothing - Manuel, Fawlty Towers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElfTengu View Post
    One of the old Black Medicine books by the nom-de-plume N.Mashiro PhD suggested using pets as weapons, including throwing a cat into the face of an intruder and tongue-in-cheekily (I hope) holding a toy poodle by the back legs and using it as a club!

    They don't write 'em like that any more!
    Yes they do, just not books. "Give me...Gopherchucks!" Sound familiar?
    Trevor Johnson

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