James Williams cutting festival!

[Tom Karazozis]

As for the "Time Warp" video thingy...

I couldn't have said it better than Mr. Beaubien.

[100110]

The Nami-ryu website does say "Ancient Samurai Martial Arts" - I initially assumed that this was the case. I was surprised to learn that Nami-ryu is not kobudo. So it's safe to say that this baffled me. I don't think it's anyone's business to decide whether it is right or wrong for Mr Williams to promote his business in this way, and I don't object to the use of a Japanese name for an American martial arts school. But referring this style as "Ancient Samurai Martial Arts" is misleading.

Yes, the presenters were clearly of subnormal intelligence and were responsible the more distasteful test-cutting ideas, but Mr Williams was not forced to do anything. In his place I would have to object to doing anything as silly as slicing through an egg.

It doesn't show a lack of training, legitimacy or even sincerity, but it does (in my view) show a lack of class. That's lamentable but not really a big deal. It doesn't mean he has done anything wrong or particularly objectionable. I wouldn't call it bad budo, but I probably wouldn't call it budo either.

[100110]

Since neither of you guys from Canada are willing to get on any mats or come visit for coffee or tea.....please do us a favor and put up some youtube video of you performing your martial skills , so we have a sense of your legitiamcy to tell us all or define what is right or not. Since many koryu members and leaders participate in filming - hundreds (at least) of which are avaialoble on youtube - there should be no reason for you to complain or deny us a good look at you doing what you believe is appropriate.

Ok, I'm not taking sides here, but I must resist your logic. Exactly how qualified does someone need to be before they can voice their opinion? If, for instance, I complained about the quality of a wine, would you insist that I produce a better one in order to validate my complaint? Surely you must admit that your reasoning, in this case, is a bit silly. It's also not particularly gracious to challenge people to duels or face-to-face confrontations. You're basically threatening to beat them up. If you think that being a thug is the way to win an argument, then my opinion of you must suffer. If I recall correctly, no one cast aspersions on the effectiveness of your techniques. If it were suggested that Nami-ryu was a poor martial art, then it would be correct to invite others to "compare techniques".

Again, this doesn't mean I'm taking the side of the gentlemen you're quarreling with. I'm not very interested in that dispute anyway.

[Jim O'Connell]

Here is a re-run that addresses this posting as it did postings a year ago:

First off, I am a long time student of Mr. Williams - long time is 13 years at present, following 20 years of training in martial arts under the tutelage of other talented and honorable teachers. I am also an instructor of Nami ryu Aiki Heiho.

In the initial thread, Mr. Williams did not challenge Tom Karozosis to a duel. You might note that the moderators in that thread did not read beyond the black and white; and I would humbly suggest that others follow their example in this thread. Mr. Williams was challenging Mr. Karozosis to act like a man and present himself in person, and demonstrate (not duel, not challenge to a fight, not threat to do harm…..) his capacity and reason for making such disparaging statements. He makes new disparaging statements in this thread – but then, James Williams is no longer in Japan.

Mr. Cyr and Mr. Karozozis continue to make statements in this thread that do not come from reading what is written, but from their interpretations of what is written. They use the terms “bushido” and “koryu” openly. On the other hand those words are not used in what is written at this thread’s start.
Yes, as was noted by another writer in this thread: they have an agenda. (That is my opinion – but if I am wrong, why are they so bothered by what Mr. Wiliams and Nami ryu purport?) The last I checked they are not koryu official, or e-budo appointed, arbiters of what is acceptable in martial arts, koryu, Japanese culture, martial culture, or Japanese history. Actually, my opinion is that it is Mr. Karozosis and Mr. Cyr’s “Camp 2” agenda – which I do not believe to be openly shared by most martial artists or to be reflective of the Japanese psyche. I have been to Japan too, trained in koryu there; and gosh, I was even challenged on one of those training occasions to physically prove myself by a Japanese national one of the evenings between the keiko and dinner. I was thanked by all of my sempai present at that encounter for taking a particularly aggressive youngster down a notch. It wasn’t easy and could have gone the other way. I am not particularly skilled, so I just have to keep training. It wasn’t a dark alley, but I could have been hurt. No one was injured and everyone was, and still are, friends afterwards. I train with both reasonable and honorable people.

James offered to discuss in person and demonstrate or be demonstrated to by Mr. Karozosis; and offered to come to him in Japan, suggesting that he would take the brunt of travel to discuss this topic in person – like men. Mr. Robinson, who is a also a student of Mr. Williams, publicly offered Mr. Karozozis an invitation to visit and even stay at his house. Mr. Williams, as well as many of us in Nami ryu; demonstrate openly, are not afraid to have visitors (if they are really good we ask them to be guest instructors), and certainly feel that honorable men have the right to stand up, and duty to be accountable for, their statements in person when called upon. We post our schedule openly, have attended every Aiki Expo, support local dojo that ask us to demonstrate, explain clearly what our basis for training is, and do not claim a right to existence other than demonstrating our ability to do or not.

Nami ryu Aiki Heiho does not consider itself budo, but instead bujutsu, (both are terms that have no clear or universally accepted meanings in practical use - but stated here to illustrate our view point). Since Nami ryu does not consider itself budo, and is not koryu (please go to http://www.namiryu.com/origins.html to see what Nami ryu is) we do not feel a need to conform to Mr. Cyr’s point of view on what is right or wrong either. We do not share or even agree with his assertions of what Budo is; however, since we do not claim to be budoka, he is welcome to claim those assertions for himself. If they work for others reading this, then you are welcome to those beliefs, and can subscribe to them openly without insisting that everyone else must accept them as well. What I personally can’t fathom, is why anyone would train with a sword or any form of martial arts; and claim that proficiency, ability, mindset, or application are less important than spiritual growth. I believe that spiritual growth begins with the truth, and therefore training with a sword calls for developing a realistic ability that can be used widely and systematically. To quote a Western book accepted by many in Japan:” Faith without works is dead”.

If Budo means you are not responsible for making statements in public forums, cannot respond in person to people who challenge your statements; I would not want to claim it anyway. I personally believe that is not what Budo is, but I don’t claim to tell others what they are supposed to believe; nor do I feel that my opinions are so important that disparaging others is my right because I bought a sword or learned some kata. I also would not presume to tell anyone what Japanese believe about the Chushingara; however, I would note that they have made a number of movies about the event and have a museum and shrine at their gravesite. I too have been there on a three occasions, and no one passed me the pamphlet that explained that its purpose is proof of the wrongness of the people buried there. There must be some reason for that, but I won’t presume to tell everyone here what I think that is by stating my opinion as fact.

Mr, Cyr and Mr. Karozosis: Will my opinion make you angry enough to call me names too? Go ahead; you can even make disparaging remarks in Japanese to or about me. Maybe, if I am lucky, Ren Kuroda can make disparaging remarks about me on his blog as well. On the other hand he was very polite and well mannered the times he has visited with us in California. One thing about Ren and his teacher – they at least put up videos (please search youtube and /or google and look at them) of their performance as proof of their ability, and you can review those videos along with Nami ryu videos on youtube to help judge their point of view. They do things differently and that doesn’t bother us at all.

Mr. Cyr and Mr. Karozosis, please accept my invitation to visit and have tea or coffee any time you find yourselves in California. I won’t ask you on the mat, I won’t call you names, I won’t make disparaging remarks about your style of martial arts, and I won’t tell you or demonstrate any thing that will cause you to feel threatened in any way

As far as filming these things go....no one knew about the show at time of filming, since it did not exist on film at that time. Like most documentary series filmed by independent production companies that air on Discover & History Channel, most if not all of the filming is done before it goes to editing and post production. The participants most likely (and in this case did) see the show at airing. Both shows were filmed before there was a showing as it had not been through a season or initial showing yet.

The premise was that they would use high speed photography to be able to show in slow speed what the eye cannot pick up in real time movement. In that light the second filming was a challenge to see how a sword would work in what they purported to be a more realistic substance than grass mats. Access to this type of equipment and analysis should be interesting to anyone looking to understand more fully what happens when a sword cuts through substances including flesh and bone (which is its design purpose). In that vein, the second filming was engaged in. There was no proffered script before - the producers and presentors work from note like "treatments", which is what is the norm for these shows. So yes, the process Mr. Beaubien describes makes more sense, but this is not the process here in the American film industry. Ed K. hit it on the head:

They are in complete control of what will be presented and if it doesn't look or sound just right, it will get caught in editing and end up on the floor

for instance, the sounds of the sword cutting were "added in", and are not actual sounds made.

As far as the wasted food thing goes, I have seen much more left to waste in a single restaurant sitting in Japan (take your pick of locations, I have seen food wasted in Asakusa, Ginza, Osaka, Iwai, Nikko, Kyoto....), so while the sentiment about not wasting food is good (the priests at the seminary really pushed that one to me when I was a boy, they needed to pull God into the equation to try to get us to eat the reasonably unedible) - it is not reality anywhere people are not starving. All of the meat was cut with a clean sword and was edible after the cutting. Was it? I don't know, anymore than someone could convince me that all the leftover food in restaurants is fed to animals or used for fertilizer.

Tom K., your opinions are consistant, along with your associate Mr. St. Cyr. In my consistant respone to your being unwilling to be repsonsible for the validity of your statements and/or opinions, I will in like kind repeat

If Budo means you are not responsible for making statements in public forums, cannot respond in person to people who challenge your statements; I would not want to claim it anyway. I personally believe that is not what Budo is, but I don’t claim to tell others what they are supposed to believe; nor do I feel that my opinions are so important that disparaging others is my right because I bought a sword or learned some kata

.

Regards,
Jim

[Maro]

Mr O'Connell, forget about posting diatribes, what is this business about "Offering people out on the Mat"?

That's tantamount to a threat. Things may be different in the Northwest but in general terms that is regarded as impolite and a threat.

Show a bit of class mate, it's reflecting very poorly on your art.

[100110]

"Nami ryu Aiki Heiho does not consider itself budo, but instead bujutsu, (both are terms that have no clear or universally accepted meanings in practical use - but stated here to illustrate our view point). Since Nami ryu does not consider itself budo, and is not koryu (please go to http://www.namiryu.com/origins.html to see what Nami ryu is) we do not feel a need to conform to Mr. Cyr’s point of view on what is right or wrong either."

Thanks for the answer. Your usage of "bujutsu" as a general term is correct, and I agree with your usage of it. I also agree that you do not have to prove anything to Mr Cyr or anyone else. But you must agree that "Ancient Samurai Martial Arts" is misleading, as Nami Ryu is not ancient and was not founded by samurai. I originally considered the notion of dressing up an American martial arts school in Japanese trappings to be suspect, but I now think Mr Williams has every right to do so if he feels that the source of much of his knowledge is Japanese. After all, the Japanese do not have exclusive rights to the word "ryu", and Mr Williams is clear about the origins of his style.

As for veiled threats...

I don't buy the argument that one's opinion gains weight or credibility if one presents it face-to-face. What does it prove? "Say it to my face" is not a reasonable demand, it's a physical threat. The subtext is, "If I were standing in front of you right now, ready to kick your ass, you'd shut up."

[Juan Perez]

Exactly how qualified does someone need to be before they can voice their opinion?

Ok. Anyone can voice their opinion on this forum (so long as the moderators feel that that opinion is not in violation of a forum rule and so forth).

Let's not confuse one thing for the other. If we were on a military forum similar to this one in scope, and some person - who either saw me perform CQB, or saw it on a video - came over and criticized my technique, it would be perfectly normal for me to ask about that person's expertise to question what I do. I might even ask them to post their own performance so that I could probably understand their point of view. I might ask where they were taught, who taught them, as part of what organization, etc. Understand the logic now? It's quite easy to understand actually.

So, to answer your question: You need absolutely "zero" expertise to voice (or write) your opinion about anything, even medical procedures. But, if you do, be prepared to quantify your claims and comments with what is behind them. So, if I tell a doctor that his incision technique is terrible and he asks me to come to his hospital and show him and some interns about my "much better" technique, I should not feel in any way indignant about it.

[Juan Perez]

I don't buy the argument that one's opinion gains weight or credibility if one presents it face-to-face. What does it prove? "Say it to my face" is not a reasonable demand, it's a physical threat. The subtext is, "If I were standing in front of you right now, ready to kick your ass, you'd shut up."

I don't agree. Maybe this is how you might personally feel about facing someone in a similar circumstance. But, this is not necessarily about what is implied here. In my job, I have experienced numerous instances of other officers sending me a "spirited" e-mail that was probably written in anger, or with other passionate emotion. If the distance is within reason, I often drive over to the particular office of that person and ask a meeting face-to-face to clear up what ever misunderstanding occured. Every single time, the person's demeanor changes and things can actually be discussed like two regular people. I have never either implied "kicking anyone's ass" or actually had to in this case. It's just that some people act very differently when they are protected from socially facing a person in real time and real space. That is the very reason why the most important business deals are rarely finalized via telephone, or via e-mail. People are just more "spirited" when they don't have to share physical space with someone they strongly disagree with. It might be human nature. Who knows?

[100110]

I don't doubt your good intentions in wishing to speak to someone in person (and this is my preference too), but the idea that an opinion delivered via correspondence is somehow weak or trumped up is simply incorrect. If not being around someone gives you the freedom to say what you like, why shouldn't you do so?

"People are just more "spirited" when they don't have to share physical space with someone they strongly disagree with. It might be human nature."

The threat may be physical or social, but it is still a threat. You may not mean it, and it may be in the other person's mind, but the reality of the situation will be that they are suppressing their true feelings for fear of reprisal.

[100110]

Ok. Anyone can voice their opinion on this forum (so long as the moderators feel that that opinion is not in violation of a forum rule and so forth).

Let's not confuse one thing for the other. If we were on a military forum similar to this one in scope, and some person - who either saw me perform CQB, or saw it on a video - came over and criticized my technique, it would be perfectly normal for me to ask about that person's expertise to question what I do. I might even ask them to post their own performance so that I could probably understand their point of view. I might ask where they were taught, who taught them, as part of what organization, etc. Understand the logic now? It's quite easy to understand actually.

So, to answer your question: You need absolutely "zero" expertise to voice (or write) your opinion about anything, even medical procedures. But, if you do, be prepared to quantify your claims and comments with what is behind them. So, if I tell a doctor that his incision technique is terrible and he asks me to come to his hospital and show him and some interns about my "much better" technique, I should not feel in any way indignant about it.

I missed this post. In your CQB scenario your argument is legitimate. But you needn't have said it, because I already did:

"If I recall correctly, no one cast aspersions on the effectiveness of your techniques. If it were suggested that Nami-ryu was a poor martial art, then it would be correct to invite others to "compare techniques"."

[Jim O'Connell]

That is one of the points Mat - no one threatened anyone - or "tantamounted" to that effect. If you are going to read diatribes, at least read mine and make statements about what I wrote. Although I must admit that what others state that my words imply is more interesting.....

For instance:

and demonstrate (not duel, not challenge to a fight, not threat to do harm…..) his capacity and reason for making such disparaging statements.

Here is more diatribe (what else do you do when you write on computer forums?) ....
Is inviting someone to visit and stay at your house a threat where you live? An invitation to visit for coffee and tea? A suggestion that in lieu of practice together, someone might stand up for their statements by putting proof of their ability on youtube? Are embu's blood baths? Go back and read what I wrote, and back to the original thread for what James wrote - and see what this thing is really about.

Where we live an invitation to get on the mat is to train together. It is an offer to exchange and practice. I have been invited to dojo all over the world and cannot remember a time when I went expecting to get beat up. I have found that when violence is the order, writing and speaking are specious.

I have been training for 35 years and for over a decade this is the friendliest group of people I have ever been on the mat with. People who come to train with us, have a tendency to note that. Our dojo is open to visitors and inquiries. If you come, most Saturday's we go to breakfast at the Pannikin on the Coast Highway in Encinitas - anyone can let us know if you would like to visit there and we will make sure to look for you.

As far as class goes....well, where I come from we consider it a lack of class to cast aspersions on others and hide behind a computer. (This is not directed at you , Mat); but I do fail to see where I have acted without class - but then again I am Irish and may have missed the moment.

To be clear and direct on this topic (some more), if I wanted to make a threat, I wouldn't write or respond to anything. Where would the heiho be in that?

Juan - thank you for actually reading the words on the page........

Mr. 100110 - Ancient Samurai Arts is a descriptive phrase that gives honor to the direct lineage of teachers that our training and school comes from. It is the "art" of what we do that is ancient and samurai - not any of us or our school.

Pax Vobiscum,
Jim

[JAnstey]

Hi all,

My to 2 cents worth... I study Legit Koryu in Iai and Jo. I travel to Japan and have regular instruction from high ranking Japanese teachers.

I found the video clip to be interesting in so far as I hadn't seen these type of slo-mo shots before.

I think that Mr William shows a high level in "cutting skill" (having said that, test cutting is not part of my study) I don't know or care one bit about his Nami Ryu or what it says it is or isn't. I am really at a loss to understand why this makes some people so very upset.

For those that see his style and seek him out to join his club, again I have no problems with this. As the new student delved deeper into the art, he/she will decide whether they want to study a new art with no history or move to an art with a legitimate line from Japan.

I think we need to realise that people are not stupid and have a choice in what arts they want to pursue, whether this be Nami Ryu, Hoki Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu or whatever. I doubt that Nami Ryu has thousands of practitioners who are out there to persuade students from other styles to leave their current dojo and join them. As we all know in martial arts, students come and go, some decide that it is just not for them - too hard, too easy, too classical, not classical enough - whatever.

Sorry about the long winded post - the bottom line for me is that I have enough confidence in myself and the linage that I follow to not care one iota what others choose to do.

Cheers

Jason

[100110]

Ancient Samurai Arts is a descriptive phrase that gives honor to the direct lineage of teachers that our training and school comes from. It is the "art" of what we do that is ancient and samurai - not any of us or our school.

This is reasonable. I actually quite like your take on this.

"As far as class goes....well, where I come from we consider it a lack of class to cast aspersions on others and hide behind a computer. (This is not directed at you , Mat); but I do fail to see where I have acted without class - but then again I am Irish and may have missed the moment."

Although this is directed at someone else, I share that gentleman's sentiment. The idea that anyone is "hiding behind a computer" implies that they have something to hide from. If they were in front of you, what would be different? What would cause them to think twice about what they say?

Again, this has nothing to do with your argument with the other two gentlemen. I don't know who's right and I don't care.

[DDATFUS]

If they were in front of you, what would be different? What would cause them to think twice about what they say?

Actually, I've read a few articles lately about how people are much more willing to be rude on the internet than in person. Think about it; on the internet you're often anonymous (not true at e-budo, thankfully), miles away from the person that you are insulting, and often have never met that person. When you've seen someone face-to-face it is easier to respect them as a person, whether or not you agree with them, than when they are nothing more to you than a series of words that appear on a screen. People often just don't treat others like people online.

I suspect that a lot of the bitter arguments that I've seen on e-budo wouldn't happen if the people were sitting across from each other in a coffee shop. They might still disagree, but I suspect that they'd be a bit more likely to respect each other enough to work through some of their differences. If someone wants to encourage their critics to meet with them and talk face-to-face, then I see that as a good idea. It shows that they respect their critics' opinions enough to actually sit down and meet with them, to take real time out of their lives-- as opposed to their internet time-- to address concerns.

[Josh Reyer]

It should be noted that the original challenge/invitation extended to Tom Karozozis by James Williams was in response to Mr. Karozozis clearly and specifically questioning Mr. Williams knowledge and ability in this thread.

As near as I can see, Mr. Williams and Nami-ryu are not koryu and not budo -- they are interested in taking what various armed and unarmed techniques they can learn from living traditions and synthesizing them into Mr. Williams' own syncretic take on combat. As near as I can see, he is not interested in getting into the Japanese mindspace, old or modern, but rather that Nami-ryu is taking old Japanese sword techniques and putting them in an American context for American practitioners. There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself. One can justifiably said that this is the way new styles were created. And in this context, there's absolutely nothing wrong with going on a TV show and utilizing those techniques on fruits, vegetables, and meats. The sword is just a tool, and the techniques to use it simply physical skills.

From a budo perspective, particularly a kobudo/koryu perspective, techniques are not merely techniques, they are an inheritance from forebears. Their use was for the most vile of human acts: the taking of another life, and their training was to transcend that vileness. As such, to use the techniques for pure spectacle, as in this case, is in terrible taste. Cutting an egg, at least, could be seen as a somewhat acceptable, if silly, demonstration of skill. Cutting chunks of meat and bone, with the specific intention of getting something that "looks like an armpit", is practically a profanity. But James Williams is not a budoka, and that was amply demonstrated with his performance on this show.

Nami-ryu bears some resemblance to another syncretic art: Shinkendo. Toshishiro Obata and his students appeared on "Fight Science" to demonstrate their cutting art. After cutting a fair number of tatami mats, the producers asked them to demonstrate on a stiff gelatin shaped like the head and shoulders of a man. Obata and his students wisely refused. Of course it would have been an excellent demonstration of a sword and swordsman's cutting power, but budo disciplines have considerations other than pure, objective technique and science.

All that said, the rather shrill and self-righteous tone adopted by Messrs. Cyr and Karozozis have struck me in much the same way as Mr. Williams cutting demonstration. Objectively justified, and subjectively distasteful.

Edit: From a linguistic standpoint, Nami-ryu does not use the word koryu. But they do use the word heiho, which is practically as bad. Heiho is an obsolete term that is used only in referring to pre-Meiji sword and sogo-bujutsu schools.