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Thread: Denying Shorinji Kempo's Chinese heritage...

  1. #31
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    I realize I will get banned for this, but I really don't care.

    In reply to the account of SK'S alleged demise at the hands of the venerable Chinese master: what a load of fcuknig wnak! Christ save us from this kind of old-master-emerges-from-wood-and-effortlessly-defeats-10-giants-with-a-single-fart-type crap! Not to mention the insult: do you really think we would go around issuing that kind of challenge? Bear in mind that when our people have gone in for open competition--think Sugihara/byakuren kaikan--we have shown ourselves to be quite capable; but we, ON PRINCIPLE, don't go in for that kind of behavior.

    Moreover, whoever buys in to that kind of nonsense (one-finger-push-of death) is doomed to get creamed on the street. Enjoy the wnak. I'll stick to Sk.

  2. #32
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    Default The fight

    Cute story. ^^

    JL


    P. S.: Please bear in mind the origin: it's a eulogoy for Master Wang. Accomplishing 'miracles' is a standard part of those. This story is not about SK, it's about Master Wang.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  3. #33
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    If you watch TV programs that originate in China, they often have commentaries that, in translation, sound very old-fashioned - like something from a Pathe news reel of the 1950s. Jan summed it up perfectly and it is clearly written in a style appropriate to a euogy to Master Wang. No need to dismiss it totally as nonsense, just take it for what it is and make allowances for the stylistic embellishments.

    If I recall, we had a link on here to a YouTube clip quite recently that was Kawashima Sensei doing his Embu in Beijing, could have been the 1982 trip. You may remember we all laughed at the dubbed on sound-effects.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    If you watch TV programs that originate in China, they often have commentaries that, in translation, sound very old-fashioned - like something from a Pathe news reel of the 1950s. Jan summed it up perfectly and it is clearly written in a style appropriate to a euogy to Master Wang. No need to dismiss it totally as nonsense, just take it for what it is and make allowances for the stylistic embellishments.

    If I recall, we had a link on here to a YouTube clip quite recently that was Kawashima Sensei doing his Embu in Beijing, could have been the 1982 trip. You may remember we all laughed at the dubbed on sound-effects.

    Is it this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fZupt9GsrE
    少林寺拳法

    1996-2006

  5. #35
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    Yes Kemal, you found it. Thanks. We tried to work out when it could have been by the mention in the commentary of "5th Dans".
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  6. #36
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    The story is mentioned here too:

    http://www.shenwu.com/discus/message...tml?1110042269


    ''Even Master Wang Pei Sheng became largely unknown to the younger generation because traditional martial art practice was forbideen for a long time. And as you know history in martial art is mostly orally transmitted. He had to reestablish his repution by defeating Yamazaki of Nippon Shorinji Kempo. ''

    Were there any challenge matches early on in the days of Shorinji Kempo, I imagine that at the time dojo yaburi was much more common.

    In fact isnt one of the current heads of the european (france?) Shorinji Kempo famous for challenge matches?
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu-kusa View Post

    In fact isnt one of the current heads of the european (france?) Shorinji Kempo famous for challenge matches?
    (Q): Do you still get in fights?
    (A): Now?... At this age, if I were still getting in fights, I'd be treated like an idiot! Still, there are times when I intercede, and there are some people who get mad even though you talk to them. So, it's a pain to tell people like that to please stop, so sometimes there's no way around giving out a whack. Sometimes you tell people things like, "Half for others..." and you still can't resolve anything. If you want to spread the circle as philosophy or a religious view, there are lots of higher religious people who could do that better than me.


    http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/.../aosakass.html
    Indar Picton-Howell
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  8. #38
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    Thats an excellent interview, much appreciated!
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

  9. #39
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    Mulling this over last night.. as I sometimes do... I think it is worth mentioning the importance of context. People choose what to say and when to say it, they select the words and the tone with various intentions, but judging the audience is crucial. A scientist explaining a complex aspect of their chosen field will have to significantly change their terms if they are speaking to non-scientists or to their peers. For the general public, the phrases and jargon common in that field might have either no meaning, or confusingly, the words might have different meanings in normal conversation. When Hombu publish extracts of Kaiso's speeches, they are kind enough to show what event it came from ("Leaders Seminar", "University Taikai", etc.) and I think you really need to bear that in mind when you read them. Although the books written by Kaiso are only written in the 1970s, the modern reader is likely to have a far greater knowledge of martial arts history than the original readers (given that modern readers are likely to be curious, but experienced martial artists - whereas earlier readers would possibly have been enthusiastic beginners). His explanations of the history of martial arts, and the role of the Shaolin Temple, were for an audience that had never heard of the Shaolin Temple!! That alone seems a hard fact to grasp, that anyone could have never heard of the Shaolin Temple seems crazy, but it really wasn't a known place until after the 1970s. No, really! It didn't become part of the public consciousness until mainstream entertainment media picked up on it and used it as the backdrop for a thousand different tales of action and drama*. These days, I think you'll find that almost everyone claiming to study martial arts (and a whole load that do nothing - like me) can tell you about the Shaolin Temple and it's (legendary) place in history.

    Kaiso's own knowledge about the Shaolin Temple came via face-to-face conversations and whatever resources were available to him at the time. If, in his writings, he presents an image of Shaolin, and CMA in general, as "dead arts"... then presumably that was the impression he formed from his experience IN CHINA, AT THE TIME. We can now take a different look at the situation as more information has become available... but we can't unfortunately go back and talk to Kaiso about it and whether he still feels the same, or whether he would change the books with the benefit of hindsight.

    Going around to Matial Arts forums and giving out information based on Kaiso's 1970s books, is equivalent in some ways to going into a room filled with cosmologists and shouting out "The moon is made of cheese". There are certain aspects of that statement which are not going to be accepted without comment. Being able to listen to those comments and recognise when there is value, is crucial to being able to learn.

    Likewise, the story about Master Wang and Yamasaki Sensei, as Jan said, is written for its intended audience. The style is chosen to praise Master Wang and it does a nice job.

    * A simple search on IMDb on movie and TV titles with "Shaolin", shows 193 results, with only 6 being before 1970 (and some of those might have been re-titled for re-release after the kung fu movie explosion of the mid-1970s).
    David Noble
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    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  10. #40
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    Lets not forget that the monastery was the target of government prosecution numerous occasions after WWII - any evidence that may have existed was likely destroyed years ago.
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

  11. #41
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    Persecution over hundreds of years. Mao's Cultural Revolution was just the latest in a long line of official policies that sought to remove the influence/power of the Temple. Modern attempts to make the Temple qualify as a World Heritage site have featured some fairly heavy-handed government policies that remind us why China is so famous for "re-writing history" as well as making it. Cleaning up the slums of Beijing in time for the olympics had a similar pattern - "Everybody out! Why? Because we say so!".

    From the articles, it would seem that Chinese martial artists were thoroughly pissed off that So Doshin would claim to be the last surviving example of authentic Shaolin-style training. Easy to understand that. The fact he was Japanese must have made that particularly hard to swallow. Finally, when the government realised how lucrative the "Shaolin" name could be, they start to support the people that they spent decades trying to wipe out.. a common pattern in China, apparently.

    It is therefore, very satisfying to see how well the relationship between Hombu and Chinese Martial Arts groups has flourished over the years. Most of the animosity and background to the story has been dealt with. People on both sides have come to appreciate the finest aspects of mutual respect and co-operation (even if we are still talking about the time when they were enemies). Hombu invite CMA groups to perform at Taikai, Shorinji Kempo demo teams appear in Beijing. The Shaolin Temple has been "re-discovered" and is now revered by all. The Temple is being restored (although visitors have commented that the character has been changed by official involvement - think "Disneyland Songshan") and in a typical So Doshin way, it took a bit of blunt speaking to trigger change. His involvement has been acknowledged in the earlier articles, somewhat grudgingly as you would expect. I don't think Shorinji Kempo could ever claim to have been "responsible" for the rejuvenation of the Shaolin Temple, but seriously, the annoying presence of Shorinji Kempo (and the spectacular Headquarters, and the huge membership) probably played a significant role in the background story. Classic example of Shorinji Kempo philosophy in action .
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  12. #42
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    Gassho,

    Just thought i'd throw my pennyworth into the mix.

    Firstly before getting angry and dismissive of this account of an encounter between Yamasaki Sensei and Sifu Wang lets explore what's actually discribed (not whats claimed to have been said, which reads like a kungfu movie script).
    For speed of writing i'm going to leave off the honorifics, no slight is intended. Firstly it says that Yamasaki grasped Wangs wrist and (paraphrasing) attempted to apply some form of tembin waza. This tells me two things. Firstly this wasn't a fight, or even a contest. You don't use shikake waza as an opening move against a capable and aware opponent, unless of course you want to get knocked out. Secondly he then repeated the same tactic the second to sixth time. I think what you have here is a discusion between high ranking, highly skilled martial artists, our guys say they have never real Taiji in Japan, the Chinese say Mr. Wang here can show you some and Wang says grab my wrist and try to lock me (sound familiar to anyone here, sounds like just about every seminar I've ever attended) He then performs his equivelent of our Juho waza. Yamasaki gamely keeps grabbing hold because demo's are no fun if no one grabs hold.
    No face is lost, it would be natural for Yamasaki to be uke to a martial artist of Wang's generation and stature. Besides he might learn something useful. Indeed maybe he did if the other thread is anything to go by, he continued/continues to grow as a budoka.
    All the remaining content of the article is fairly typical Sino/Japanese political b/s born of the unfortunate early to mid 20th Century relations between the countries.

    One thing I would say is that people should keep perspective on this stuff, getting all irate and abusive about it does nothing for our credibility as budoka.
    Regards
    Paul
    Kesshu

  13. #43
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    Gassho!

    Once more a very insightful and rational analysis. Arigato!

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  14. #44
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    Default Gratitude on my part

    I wonder if anyone is still following this _ancient_ thread. I am thrilled to see Master Wang's mastery acknowledged. Some of you may be interested in seeing my master's eulogy to Wang Peisheng here: http://www.ycgf.org/WPS_Eulogy/WPS_Eulogy.html. Meanwhile, I do think that Master Yamazaki might have considered publicizing his loss to Wang Peisheng - however much it hurt - as an honorable thing to do. There was apparently a newspaper article published about it in Japan - some of our gong fu uncles have this in their possession - or at least a page of the magazine from which it came. There also was television footage of it. It was not just one challenge one defeat. It was 7 attacks and 7 _easy_ defeats (the hallmark of Taijiquan mastery). In fact Master Wang took great umbrage with the beliefs stated honestly in this forum - as if Shorinji Kempo were somehow the last vestige of Chinese Martial arts. And indeed, the writings of General Qi Jiguang - from the 1500's show that Shaolin was _not_ the "creme de la creme" of Chinese martial arts anyway. He was not impressed at all with their "mastery" way back then. So claiming to be descendants of this lineage is a risky business . And indeed, never believe anything you hear from a martial arts group _anywhere_. Always seek that which is verifiable in the form of texts or other documentation of claims. Until I had studied for many years, I never realized how much lying goes on in these systems - it is a disgrace.

    Anyway, if anyone ever locates the footage of Master Yamazaki's interaction with Master Wang Peisheng, they will make a mint on those of us at the ready to purchase it. Interesting aside: At that time, even one of Sensei Yamazaki's entourage - a girl - attempted to "get" Master Wang when the group filed past shaking his hand. She (apparently) attempted to grab his hand and throw him. Of course those of us who have become familiar (I am in his lineage for the past 15 years) - would have laughed at such an individual as the outcome was always that same in virtually every such encounter with Wang Peisheng - she ended up on her butt .

    It's not fair to judge Shorinji Kempo or any other martial art against Taijiquan. Taijiquan as mastered by that older generation proved itself as a level above. This was its reputation from Yang Luchan. Unfortunately, no one today typically wants to take the time to learn it, and indeed, the art is very nearly dead. No matter what system you practice, Taijiquan is the essence of martial art. You may hear that from many styles - only one style is prepared both conceptually and in practice to "deliver the goods." Taijiquan is the only martial art that is fully documented in terms of its theory, practices and philosophy - in the form of what is called "The Classics." A full exposition of these is to be published by my master most likely within a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    Wang was considered by many to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest contempory "internal" (t'ai chi, bagua, xingyi) practitioners in the later 20th century.
    I came across this story and was struck what a) a hell of a man Yamazaki must have been, to go to another country, on their ground and willing to take on the best they had to offer - pretty much having his way with them. Which says to me that whatever the antecedents, SK has produced some really stellar martial artists b) That Wang, an internal martial artist of 60+ at the time, could handle, per the story, one of the best young practitioners around
    c) (with tongue in cheek) - not only did t'ai chi exist as a fighting art, so did xingyi and bagua, and despite the earlier claims of their non-existence, he was able to prove it. d) and when two men cross hands with respect - there's a good chance that all the admin b.s. no longer matters - - - - -
    Gosh - I thought I made that clear in my earlier post -

    Best

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baiyuantongbei View Post
    It's not fair to judge Shorinji Kempo or any other martial art against Taijiquan. Taijiquan as mastered by that older generation proved itself as a level above.
    Thanks for clearing that up! It's probably also the reason 11 out of 10 MMA champions these days come from TJQ. As far as I know, the only other real contender to the title of ultimate martial art these days is the noble art of Ameri-do-te – best of all, worst of none.
    Sorry if this comes over as condescending, but that post really sounded like it came from a 12yo forum troll.

    JL
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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