How long was it before you started using a Shinken?

[David T Anderson]

I started off using a bokken for the first 3 or 4 sessions of Iai practice in my Aikido class. Then one day I was forced [by circs I don't recall] to timidly admit that, yes, I had a real sword [a PK at that time]. Sensei gave me an amazed look and said 'Well bring it in, man...bring it in!'.

So I did...and I've been using a live blade ever since [over three years now].

[Zoli Elo]

Probably somewhere between eight months to a year. One day my sensei at the time asked me why I do not bring in a shinken. Told him the truth, that I did not have one because of cost... Next class he had one waiting for me...

Zoli Elo

[Sam17]

Thanks everyone for the input, it has been really helpful.

Cheers
Sam

[Charles Mahan]

Originally posted by Saitama Steve
Strange, as I was encouraged by my Araki ryu sensei to start using Shinken well into my first month of doing nyumon. He let me use his for six months.

Different sensei have different teaching methods eh?

How long is your sword? This will probably make a bigger difference than the teaching method. Noto with a long sword is considerably more difficult and potentially more dangerous for the untrained than a shorter one.

I am well into my 9th or so month of Iai, and I just got my first iaito. Only a few people in our dojo use shinken, and they've been training for at least 3 years, possibly more. You can get a shinken earlier if you want, but it's generally discouraged until at least Shodan. At least, I know if I started out with shinken, I'd have quite a few less fingers.

The fact that so many people stated they pretty much started out with shinken puzzles me. They're incredibly dangerous and I really couldn't imagine giving relative newcomers a sharp sword, for both the persons and the sword's sake!

[renfield_kuroda]

Shinken aren't dangerous -- newbies are. I too would not give a total newbie a sharp sword...but just because it's their first day in the dojo doesn't mean they don't know how to handle bladed weapons.

Safety first!

Regards,

r e n

Originally posted by ivan_yulaev
The fact that so many people stated they pretty much started out with shinken puzzles me. They're incredibly dangerous and I really couldn't imagine giving relative newcomers a sharp sword, for both the persons and the sword's sake!

[Steve Delaney]

From working with a shinken straight off the bat (At my instructor's insistance) , I've learned that it makes you more aware of the weapon and of your body positioning, but also aware of the area surrounding you. That first year of usage is the scariest and you go slow. You have to get accustomed to the weapon at your own pace.

It's scary to use one for the first time and I think that's why my sensei made me use one. The more you work with the weapon, the more you trust yourself and it.

I tried doing advanced kata one time in my dojo before I was ready and I filleted my finger something terrible. I've never had problems with hand positioning on the koi guchi of the saya since.

It may seem strange, but with some teacher's there is a method to their madness.

[TimothyKleinert]

Originally posted by Saitama Steve
I've learned that it makes you more aware of the weapon and of your body positioning, but also aware of the area surrounding you.

Yeah, that's something noone has mentioned yet. I find that when I know everyone else around me is swinging sharpened steel, I always try an keep aware and track where everyone is and what they're doing.

[Jack B]

Are you saying you do not stay aware of your surroundings if the guy next to you only has an iaito?

[pgsmith]

Are you saying you do not stay aware of your surroundings if the guy next to you only has an iaito?

That's not quite what they're saying Jack. I can understand what they are talking about. You can relate it to everyday life this way ... Are you more aware of who and what is around you if you are walking through an affluent suburban neighborhood, or an inner city slum? When death or severe injury is a distinct possibility, your body will make its own adjustments independent of your thought processes. At least, that has been my experience.

Cheers,

[Charles Mahan]

You both have good points. Shinken are different. No doubt about it.

When it comes to potential dangers to others training in the same dojo, the difference strikes me I think a bit differently than it strikes you, Paul. Accidentally getting caught under someone's kiriorshi will pretty much ruin your day, whether they are using shinken or iaito.

Where shinken are more dangerous than iaito in the dojo is that you might catch a far lighter brush. A light brush with an iaito won't cut, but a light brush with a shinken will.

So the chance of serious injury isn't really any greater, although your spidey sense may feel otherwise. It's the chance of lesser injuries that is increased.

Given generally good dojo safety routines, the dangers from shinken are far more likely to impact the user than those around him.

[pgsmith]

Given generally good dojo safety routines, the dangers from shinken are far more likely to impact the user than those around him.

I fully agree with that assessment. The brain just doesn't see it that way. If I'm practicing around others using shinken, the brain just seems to pay more attention to their location than if they are all using iaito. The same sort of thing happens when I am practicing by myself with shinken. The brain seems to kick up a notch knowing that a mistake can leave body parts on the floor. Although I try to always think of iaito, and bokken, as true swords, the instincts seem to know the difference. Perhaps I just need to train harder!

Cheers,

[Charles Mahan]

We almost agree. What I'm saying is that being any less attentive to a room full of folks swinging iaito as to a room full of folks swinging shinken is just plain dangerous. An iaito swung by someone else will kill or maim you just as quickly as a shinken will.

[Amos Smith]

An iaito swung by someone else will kill or maim you just as quickly as a shinken will. [/b]

Quicker, I think. Crushing vs. cutting. We can sew it back on if its cut. Crush it and we need the take it off.

[pgsmith]

Hey Charles,
Actually, I think we fully agree on this one. What I'm trying (fairly ineffectually as usual!) to get across is that, despite the fact that I know that your statement is true, my instincts just don't see it that way. For whatever reason, my brain doesn't see iaito as being as dangerous, even though I know it to be true.

I'll recount a story about the dangers of iaito... At the Orlando Tai Kai a few years ago, one gentleman picked up his iaito rather than his shinken when preparing for an event. (Let that be a lesson, never get cute and have your iaito and shinken wrapped so they match!) The event was dodan cutting, and he scored in the middle of the pack. I believe he cut through one and a part of a second double rolled mats (don't remember exactly). He bent the snot out of the blade, but the point is that he cut through a double rolled tatami with his alloy iaito. We shared a good laugh about it as he was trying to get it straightened back out.

Cheers,