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Thread: Interview: Saito Morihiro (hanmi, hiotemi, exotic pins, & weapons)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post

    I can get behind the idea of using the legs for a pin or finishing move, but once the guy is on the ground, it seems like use of the legs is in the realm of "finishing sugar". You could just stab the guy in the neck or something.
    Until you've actually tried to "finish" a trained adversary, on the ground, with an edged weapon, by "just" stabbing him in the neck.

    That's a tough proposition.

    Indeed, Nathan's explanation is making some of that stuff make more sense from BOTH the perspectives of arrest and an a possible entanglement in combat: especially against a skilled opponent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Until you've actually tried to "finish" a trained adversary, on the ground, with an edged weapon, by "just" stabbing him in the neck.

    That's a tough proposition.

    Indeed, Nathan's explanation is making some of that stuff make more sense from BOTH the perspectives of arrest and an a possible entanglement in combat: especially against a skilled opponent.
    Yeah good point. The guy's on the ground, I am still standing....it's not over yet.

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    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x58...e-part-2_sport


    This video is from Shoto Tanemura Sensei, it shows some interesting use of the foot against a downed opponent in the very first technique of the video. This is more Kyusho oriented but good stuff anyway.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    Yeah good point. The guy's on the ground, I am still standing....it's not over yet.
    Definitely not over - we can't forget the intended target of classical warrior techniques in general was a committed and trained adversary.

    They aren't going to go quietly, as evidenced by the number of "uke standing over" kata in the older classical ryu: from the knees or ground, you got put down, but not out of the fight. We have to respect that we may be dealing with someone with the wherewithal to drag us down with them or reverse the situation.

    Heck, even Iai has kata that deal with a guy you thought was finished but suddenly attacked in desperation from the ground.

    I think some of the more involved pins and stuff do actually reveal themselves when forestalling the countermeasures of someone who is still in the fight, so to speak - while only partially controlled. Especially if skilled. I note in doing combatives that I have to use more technical groundwork against trained BJJ guys that are doing grounded combatives versus folks with no "ground game" to speak of. That is, without just pulling guard and rolling around with them, which I avoid in that context.

    Today, it is possible to run into an MMA fighter who might have some ability to turn it around if you've put him on the ground. Has happened to a number of our officers. Or a desperate terrorist (heard an incredible story about one of those recently), or as Nathan and Chris can attest, a drug crazed or mental subject can do some surprising things and exert freakish strength from so-called pin positions: flowing/adapting with that and tying them up with knees, legs, hands, etc. comes quite in handy and could readily end up in some things that initially may appear unlikely.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:06.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Cliff wrote earlier:
    Kashima Shinto ryu fits perfectly for me because I think two things:
    1) Takeda's sword was highly influenced by Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu...it was like gokui for him.
    2) For a warrior shamen like Ueshiba, Takemikazuchi no Kami is a good deity to "get right with."
    I've got no facts to back these assertions up with, just saying, it makes sense to me.
    Well, not exactly, for a couple of reasons:
    1. Jikishinkage-ryu is only very distantly related to Kashima Shinto-ryu. There is actually some connection with the former and Kashima Shin-ryu, but that is more on essential principles than techniques. Jikishinkage-ryu is actually closer to Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, fwiw, particularly the 2nd level techniques. (And lest their be any confusion, Kashima Shinto-ryu and Kashima Shin-ryu are REALLY different.
    2. Ueshiba actually did train Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, through Gejo Kosaburo. He taught Tomiki Kenji, among others his interpretation of YSR, and later used three forms of YSR to create the sword that was done at Shingu with Hikitsuchi.
    3. As best as I can tell, Ueshiba took other people's ryu kata and used that as a vessel to contain his ideas. At one point, he asked Sugino Yoshio, his former student, to teach him Katori Shinto-ryu spear, which intrigued him at the time.
    4. FWIW, I did a chapter in Hidden in Plain Sight on aikido and weaponry, which went backwards, to some degree regarding Sokaku as well, looking at the various ryu that Ueshiba audited (rather than learned), to distill his own weapons practice.
    5. And by the way, Takeda Sokaku's role with Jikishinkage-ryu is something of a puzzle. Unless there is new data, when last I heard, there is no record in Jikishinkage-ryu annals of Takeda's membership. I'm not disputing that he trained - it simply is another mystery how much and how long.
    6. It's obvious that Ueshiba did not learn much sword from Takeda - if one looks at the 1935 Asahi shinbun film, his sword is, quite frankly, not very good. (Maybe he had "aiki," where he could do marvelous things based on his specialized trained body <don't worry, not going in detail on that sidetrack in this thread>, but his sword really got good post war, probably after all the training and self-study he did at Iwama (with Saito as his local crash-test dummy). Films of him in the 1950's show far more skill with the weapon.
    Best
    Ellis Amdur

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    Hi, Ellis. I have a couple of points raised by your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post

    1. Jikishinkage-ryu is only very distantly related to Kashima Shinto-ryu. There is actually some connection with the former and Kashima Shin-ryu, but that is more on essential principles than techniques. Jikishinkage-ryu is actually closer to Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, fwiw, particularly the 2nd level techniques. (And lest their be any confusion, Kashima Shinto-ryu and Kashima Shin-ryu are REALLY different.
    The exact relationship between (Kashima Shinden) Jikishinkage Ryu and Kashima Shinto Ryu is a bit unclear. On paper, the relationship is relatively distant. In practice, however, I've seen very intriguing similarities. Several times I've seen one of the unusual quirks that I thought was unique to Jikishinkage Ryu reflected in Kashima Shinto Ryu. I suspect that there has been more connection between the two than the history suggests. Interestingly, the similarities that I'm thinking of between Kashima Shinto Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu are not things that I've seen in any of the footage of Kashima Shin Ryu that I've witnessed.

    I do agree with you regarding the similarity of Jikishinkage and Yagyu Shinkage; these are often pointed out to me by my instructor. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by "2nd level techniques." Would you mind clarifying?
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    David - by 2nd level kata, I was referring to Fukuro Shinai no kata (Tō no kata) 2nd in the mokuroku after Hojo no Kata.

    Ellis Amdur

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    Ah, that makes sense. Many parts of to no kata have a strong resemblance to various things that I've seen in Yagyu.

    Interestingly, the Jiki kata that share names with Yagyu kata-- Itto Ryodan, Uten saten, totan ichimi, all from hojo-- bear no resemblance whatsoever to their Yagyu counterparts in any version that I've seen. It would be fascinating to know where that divergence crept in and how the forms would have compared to each other at different points in the history of the two schools-- very inconsiderate of the folks back in the Sengoku jidai not to make any video recordings for us.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    Cliff wrote earlier:

    5. And by the way, Takeda Sokaku's role with Jikishinkage-ryu is something of a puzzle. Unless there is new data, when last I heard, there is no record in Jikishinkage-ryu annals of Takeda's membership. I'm not disputing that he trained - it simply is another mystery how much and how long.
    Okay, I shall hereby publically disabuse myself of the idea that Jikishinkage ryu training was influential on Takeda's development.

    More training, less groundless speculation on my part.

  11. #41
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:06.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    So as I said, if I were trying to better understand an art like Daito-ryu, it would seem like a more appropriate expenditure of time and effort to study a Shinkage-ryu line or Itto-ryu line. Not that you couldn't learn important things from studying another line of swordsmanship, and discover links with Daito-ryu principles and tactics, but in the big picture you might be trying to mix apples and oranges in regards to learning more about either art as a result of such cross training. It kind of seems like Ueshiba Sensei was just interested in learning weapons from any source so that he could experiment with applying aiki with them. It probably wouldn't have been appropriate for him to become a beginner student under another teacher in a different art, so he just took from what was available to him on the side.

    Just my opinion,
    I think you are being too rational and pragmatic to really arrive at an answer as to why Ueshiba did something.

    I mean he certainly wasn't shopping for a sword school that would help him gain a deeper understanding of Daito ryu when he put his name in the Kashima Shinto ryu roles, right?

    I think its got much more to do with Kashima shrine's spiritual importance than any tactical or strategic teaching the ryu might have.

    The Kanto plain is probably the most important piece of land in all of Japan, because you can grow a lot of rice there. Kashima shrine in the early part of the second millenium was an outpost from which the surpression of the non-Yamato Japanese was conducted. Furthermore, there is a giant catfish that lives under the ground there, and when it gets restless there are terrible earthquakes and tsunamis. There are a number of stones on the shrine grounds that pin that catfish down and keep him from thrashing.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    JSR and OIR are fairly different though, deriving from Aisu Kage-ryu and Chujo-ryu respectively (with the founding esoteric teachings of each art obtained from different parts of the country)....
    So as I said, if I were trying to better understand an art like Daito-ryu, it would seem like a more appropriate expenditure of time and effort to study a Shinkage-ryu line or Itto-ryu line. Not that you couldn't learn important things from studying another line of swordsmanship, and discover links with Daito-ryu principles and tactics, but in the big picture you might be trying to mix apples and oranges in regards to learning more about either art as a result of such cross training.
    Just to give this one more try: I'm not entirely certain that Jikishinkage Ryu doesn't derive at least as much of its inner workings from the Shinto Ryu sources as from the Shinkage source. I understand that Jikishinkage Ryu is clearly part of the Shinkage "family" and traces its line from Kamiizumi. There are, however, a few interesting quirks regarding Jikishinkage's history.

    Alone among all of the Kamiizumi-descended arts, Jikishinkage Ryu traces its lineage back to the Shinkage (?) Ryu of Matsumoto Bizen-no-Kami of Kashima Shrine (also purported to be a teacher of Bokuden) rather than to Kage Ryu. There is probably a significant reason for this. I've heard that the "reikenden" is a very important part of the transmission of both Jikishinkage Ryu and Kashima Shinto Ryu, as is the concept of "ichi no tachi." I do not believe-- but could be wrong-- that "ichi no tachi" is a concept stressed in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    As Nathan points out, the major sword lineages are a bit more interbred than we sometimes remember. I think that Jikishinkage Ryu in some ways straddles the Shinkage and Kashima heritage, and it would not surprise me to find that a great deal of the gokui-level concepts of Jikishinkage Ryu could be found in Kashima Shinto Ryu.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  14. #44
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    Gokui are shared, I am told, between Kashima SHIN-ryu and Jikishinkage-ryu. Both claim Matsumoto at the head of their line. One thing that makes things confusing is that the 11th gen headmaster (I think) of KShinryu also became licensed in Jikishinkage-ryu, and it's conceivable that they melded at that time, not before. My understanding of Kashima Shin-ryu history is that they regard this as a reunification of two parallel lineages. (Friday or Bodiford could clear this up quickly - or, somewhere in e-budo archives, there are some discussions on this).

    I do not believe that the teachings of Kashima SHINTO-ryu have a similar link, beyond their attachment to Kashima shrine. I'm basing this, however, on casual conversations among other practitioners/researchers, not first-hand knowledge.

    As for cross-fertilization in ryuha - that is accurate. Here's an example. Isezaki ARaki-ryu has gokui which are straight from Jikishinkage-ryu and shares kata with Kiraku-ryu. These latter two ryu were the other two most important ryu in the area, and if you look at enrollment lists, you'll see the same family names over and over amongst the three ryu.

    Ellis Amdur

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:07.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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