Iaito versus Shinken

[hyaku]

He is a very senior teacher. He prefers to use bokuto with a saya in teaching for safety reasons as he will do "practical examples" using other teachers and students.

I believe Iwata Norikazu is in the same camp regarding shinken. He's a bokuto kinda guy most times when he's not actively practicing, isn't he?

Michael Hodge

[Chidokan]

correct. I think the last time I saw him use a sword was about ten years ago, although he did take Nishimoto s' shinken last week to help demonstrate a point... a sword is a sword is a sword...

Neil is right about what I meant on the ferrari...its lethal in the hands of a beginner, not only to passersby but the driver as well.... Think about beginners in the class, how many forget to look before they cut to the side etc? I can take a dunt on the head with a bokken and possibly an iaito, but a shinken may penetrate to even my vital spots (deeply buried as they are..)

I can see where the instructor is coming from regarding carelessness, but even so we all know one slip is all it takes to call an ambulance... I would be surprised if anyone on here who uses a shinken hasn't had a little 'reminder' from it at some point to not forget how sharp it is...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Now we're back to why you shouldn't use a shinken.... Trust me when I say that I'm well aware of the innate hazards in using a live blade, Hyaku & Tim, but it isn't my choice in this case, & a Sensei with Menkyo Kaiden likely has pretty good reasons for his choice of our training weapons. All I'm wondering is which of us is using which sword in dojo practice today.

On the Ferrari theme, unless you're studying a very different iaido than I am, all opponents are virtual, so how in the heck do bystanders come into play?? I'm going to be real leery of a dojo where students are within even quite a few feet of each other during training! And when I'm helping Sensei with newbies, I'm damn careful of where they're swinging, be it a shinken or a bokken! When we do contact demos in either dojo, we use bokken, of course, although Sensei & our senior student put on an eye-opening demo with shinken & jo a few weeks ago that was pretty scary!

Mat's comment that Chen blades are not exactly the best balanced doesn't really come into play until the student gets to the point where he/she can even notice the balance - probably a few years, by which time they can probably afford to invest in a better blade (not that I've really noticed any major imbalance the few times I've swung a Chen). And I've handled a number of genuine Japanese shinken that didn't feel all that good to me because of weight distribution, center of percussion (thanks for that term, Lance; I've tried to find the right words several times, but yours is better), & overall balance.

David's comment that using a shinken has heightened his "awareness and sensitivity in a very useful way" is more on the order of what I'm looking to discuss. After using my own shinken for a few years, I'll have to admit that I really don't treat it any differently than my iaito (I'm reasonably careful with both), but I can definitely feel the difference when I'm cutting with it in practice. It feels more "real" to me when I'm swinging it, I guess. I'm not quite ready to agree that "a sword is a sword is a sword...".

Oh, & I thank Eric for privately pointing out my major typo when I wrote "MSR" instead of "SMR." Must have been the single-malt scotch I was drinking. Glad Sensei is on a trip!

[Kim Taylor]

On the Ferrari theme, unless you're studying a very different iaido than I am, all opponents are virtual, so how in the heck do bystanders come into play??

I wasn't going to write anything on this, all we need is for the lawmakers and insurance industry to start paying more attention to "swords", but.

At a major seminar recently a fairly high ranked student was listening to some comments by a sensei on nuki uchi (MJER technique which is a draw and cut) In this case the instruction was draw, move blade back as if stabbing to the rear and...

I suspect you know the rest, a couple of rows worth of iaidoka seated on the floor listening went flat fast enough to avoid being skewered, thankfully.

Iaito or shinken it wouldn't have mattered much, but of course bystanders are going to be involved in any training situation, and if we as instructors don't constantly nag the students about safety we're going to have problems.

Any discussion of shinken usage is going to automatically move toward safety, and it should. Of course I can also show students a nifty scar on my left hand where I ran an iaito tip right down to the bone, but if I'd been using a shinken I wouldn't be practicing iaido today.

When hearing it, keep in mind the history of the fellow who came up with the quote "toy swords make toy swordsmen".

I always responded to that by thinking "real swords make absent students". Some of the "lessons" a student can learn from a shinken can be a bit harsh.

Kim Taylor

[Chidokan]

our current insurance will not allow shinken at major seminars, although it is up to our discretion at the club dojo level where teachers have a lot more control and fewer to worry about. Allowing insurance into MA was a big mistake in my book, once they start on 'get out clauses' its not worth the paper its written on in my opinion.... and have you ever seen a policy without clauses? I blame a lot on the nanny state mindset...

Note I do use a shinken, which is down to Iwata s. telling me to use one as I was 'careless' on certain points and a shinken would stop this. I agree with Kim though, I think our experiences over the years combine up to say a beginner with a blade is not a good idea...
Just a thought.... are there any people in the MSR class who have never handled a blade before? It may be that although he classes you all as beginners at MSR, none of you are that incompetent that you couldn't be trusted with a shinken!

[Lance Gatling]

。。。。。。。。shinken that didn't feel all that good to me because of weight distribution, center of percussion (thanks for that term, Lance; I've tried to find the right words several times, but yours is better), & overall balance.。。。。。。

’Center of percussion' is hardly my term, but thanks for the credit!

It's a term the denotes a certain point along the length of the sword (or bo, jo, other solid) where the standing waves from a strike cancel; a node in the vibrations. (pluck a string and watch for the parts that don't move....) So, the energy is most efficiently transferred into the solid - and vice versus (i.e., when the sword is moving to impart energy on a target, whether to cut or strike). And less vibration on the hand.

So that's the best part with which to cut. Or that's the theory of some.

It's an issue of controversy, but I think the terms help me understand. And fun to try to figure out why it moves around on different swords.

If you're interested, check this article out.
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA...nd_impacts.htm

Cheers,

[Maro]

[QUOTE=Ken-Hawaii;462624

Mat's comment that Chen blades are not exactly the best balanced doesn't really come into play until the student gets to the point where he/she can even notice the balance - probably a few years, by which time they can probably afford to invest in a better blade (not that I've really noticed any major imbalance the few times I've swung a Chen). And I've handled a number of genuine Japanese shinken that didn't feel all that good to me because of weight distribution, center of percussion (thanks for that term, Lance; I've tried to find the right words several times, but yours is better), & overall balance.
[/QUOTE]

Hi Ken,

I've always been in the "Get a good Iaito" first camp. When it comes to the stage of ordering a shinken for use in Kata etc, it should be a good quality blade. I wouldn't be getting beginners to use low-end Chen blades for normal practice. It's important they understand good balance etc via their Iaito.

As for COP, I was under the impression that related to Western Blades more than Japanese. COP refers to a point of impact and percussive force entering the target - we don't hit with one point in JSA due to the slicing motion. I think it's a different theory altogether.

[Nii]

Does cutting with a shinken feel different to cutting with an iaito? Perhaps easier to move the blade because the edge is sharper hence with less wind resistance? I'm assuming the balance between the two is roughly the same.

[Josh Reyer]

I've been doing Yagyu Seigo-ryu Batto for about a year. I was given a loaner iaito at my second practice. I got my own about six months later and the loaner has gone to another newbie. Just about all the "old men" of the ryu use shinken. Yagyu-sensei uses a shinken in his personal practice, and then takes up a saya-less bokuto for teaching, largely because of ease of use in demonstrating movement without having to constantly worry about putting in and taking out his sword everytime he gets up and sits down.

[Maro]

Does cutting with a shinken feel different to cutting with an iaito? Perhaps easier to move the blade because the edge is sharper hence with less wind resistance? I'm assuming the balance between the two is roughly the same.

Sharpness has no bearing on cutting in kata. The main issue is if you have disparate Shinken and Iaito weights. If one is heavier or balanced differently than the other, it will handle differently.

[Josh Reyer]

Sharpness has no bearing on cutting in kata. The main issue is if you have disparate Shinken and Iaito weights. If one is heavier or balanced differently than the other, it will handle differently.

This has certainly been my experience. My iaito feels very heavy, most likely because the balance is not ideal. Every shinken I've handled has felt much lighter and easier to use.

[Maro]

I have a fairly heavy iaito but a heavier shinken. I'm trying to get one to match but it's $$$

[Lance Gatling]

。。。。。。。。
As for COP, I was under the impression that related to Western Blades more than Japanese. COP refers to a point of impact and percussive force entering the target - we don't hit with one point in JSA due to the slicing motion. I think it's a different theory altogether.

Sure, it's 'percussion' versus 'slice and dice' - but most styles have a 'kiritsuke' that doesn't draw the blade, and if COP applies to one type of blade _in a simplified scenario_ it applies to Japanese katana. The math gets more complicated because of the curved blade, so, what? Doesn't negate the basic Newtonian physics. The scenario presented in the article I linked is definitely simplified for the purposes of illustrating the underlying principles.

I don't have a clue on physics of the slicing, but imagine you're right there, other things are at work, too, but not to the exclusion of COP. You do not lay your blade gently on a neck or torso and start drawing, you whack it soundly and pull. The initial cut enters the flesh somehow other than a straight pull sawing action, doesn't it?

And some ryu, witness Jigen ryu, spend a lot of time whacking straight blows, not much drawing at all.

[I-10 Casual]

80% Iaito, 20% wood, 10% live blade.

I use Iaito almost exclusively when practicing katana waza. When I start to loose awareness with the Iaito I'll use the shinken a few times to get the feeling of "reality" back into my practice. I use bokken when practicing contact waza, Shinken for cutting. The exception is I use a live blade wakizashi just because I don't have the cash for an iaito version of the wak.

My background is I used a bokken for the first year and a half of my training, two different styles and Sensei. Then went to Iaito and Shinken at the same time.

I like the Iaito as it keeps me injury free as far as bursitis and tendinitis are concerned. I've got tip scares all up and down my left arms from practice so I can't imagine someone using a live blade for daily practice. Those tip scares are from me getting tired and loosing concentration after a lengthy practice, more than three hours. After all we all know its not martial arts until your doing it while exhausted.

Sebastian Ramirez

[Ken-Hawaii]

Welcome aboard, Sebastian. Good comments on how you choose to use your weapons. In which ryuha do you train? And how do you manage 110% in training?? I try to give that much, but usually fall about 10% short.... How do you get "tip scars" up & down your left arm(s)? Missing at noto?

Maro, that's an interesting comment you made that "sharpness has no bearing on cutting in kata." I'm not sure I understand what you mean - can you elaborate a bit? If my hasuji isn't right using an iaito, I'll certainly be able to tell when I'm using my shinken, whether or not for cutting. I do agree that finding the right combination of iaito & shinken weight is difficult; I think I mentioned that I managed to find a rather thin shinken to match the weight & length of my iaito, but it took me almost six months. 'Twas worth it, though. I have a much heavier shinken for tameshigiri, but my forearms can stand just so much swinging with that blade!

Nii, I'm not sure that the tiny difference in surface area plays much of a role in cutting with shinken versus iaito. From my standpoint, I think I'm just a lot more aware of my cuts with a shinken, & they tend to be a lot more controlled & accurate. But I think that's helped me in the long term with my iaito performance, too. Interesting that you should bring up the balance points. I noticed a few weeks ago that the balance point on my iaito is fully 1.75 inches further toward the tip than it is on my shinken, although they have similar tsuba, tsuka, & menuki, & the nakago are almost exactly the same length. Not sure why that is, considering that my shinken is, of course, steel, & my iaito is aluminum-beryllium; I would have thought the opposite. Anyone noticed the same thing?