New Army Combatives manual

[TonyU]

Hey Jeff, I think a cut and paste of Mr. Stone's opinion would be order.
Don't you think? With his permission of course.

[ARH]

Originally Posted by IchiRiKen1

Yep. The Army is now required to have all soldiers trained and certified to level one proficiency (of four levels)...

What is involved in the fourth level? The last I heard several months ago was a fourth level was planned, but I have never read what it consists of.

[Asia]

Originally Posted by ARH

What is involved in the fourth level? The last I heard several months ago was a fourth level was planned, but I have never read what it consists of.

I will be going to the course to find out what level 4 entails. Right now I think its more weapons work but I'm not sure.

Thought I would add to the post,

While I am not with the Army anymore, I am enjoying my last 18 months with the Air Farce, I can say that I am a bit disappointed with the whole grappling thing being taught in the Army. While it is better than nothing as was the case for many years in rear area ops units,it is still not the best method as currently taught.

I tried to justify the Rangers quest with developing this system and the only justification that I could come up with is that they ( rangers) work in a team. What I mean if I tackled my adversary and pinned him to the ground then I would expect my ranger buddy to come over and stab or shoot my adversary. It works if you out-number your opponent.

The current training does not work one on one or if you are out-numbered.
But as I said it is better than nothing. I guess. Still disappointing.

Old style WW2, H2H was much better.

Ed

[Chuck.Gordon]

Hey Ed,

I agree, I think the older FM was far more 'complete'. However, as I said earlier, at least the kids are actually TRAINING this system, and my experience has been that instructors are filling in around the edges quite a bit.

The old FM was great, but it simply didn't get taught. Sad, but true.

Oh, and by the way , please (per forum rules) use your full name. You can add this in your sig if you wish.

Chuck

[IchiRiKen1]

Originally Posted by TonyU

Hey Jeff, I think a cut and paste of Mr. Stone's opinion would be order.

Hell, what did I say??? I don't think I said anything that necessarily bears repeating, and nobody needs my permission to do anything...

I've been here in Korea for nearly 2 months now. The Division apparently takes their TKD pretty seriously, enough that there is a "Warrior TKD Team" with nice, official looking hats and shirts. It appears to me that they travel around to units, don their Adidas TKD outfits (complete with warm up jackets), and "instruct" units in TKD.



There are quite a few guys doing Combatives here, at least the ground work. It isn't uncommon at all to ride around post during Sergeant's Time Training and see clusters of soldiers in BDUs and sneakers rolling around in the grass. There are a few that go to the gym and roll there as well.

Unfortunately, my office being what it is (no jokes from the vets, either...), I'm not holding my breath until we start training. I'd pass out long before it happens...

I'm going to do what I can to get some training going... I just picked up the Division Level 4 Instructor's phone number today. Gonna have to make a call...

[hoshizawa]

Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth

Now here's a thought. If this isn't a troll, then by name, who died doing H2H? There is a list of the known dead at http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html . They even include photos.

Once we know who, by name, died doing H2H, it should then be easy enough to track down more details.

The Army gives more detailed direct accounts than does the USMC. Fortunately, the combatives program under question is Army specific. Going back a few months, I see:

* Lots of improvised explosive devices near vehicle or patrol
* The occasional RPG or small arms fire striking the deceased's vehicle, position, or person
* The occasional motor vehicle accident (driving into a ditch, collisions, etc.)
* The occasional helicopter crash
* Non-battle related reasons (disease, etc.)

No H2H casualties, though.

Anyway, I only looked at a couple of months of casualties. So, maybe they're there. But, if they are, then the risk caused by somebody not paying attention during H2H training is definitely far lower than the risk caused by somebody not paying attention during motor vehicle/aviation maintenance.

Just to help out,

Last year in the 1st Armored Division a soldier from 2/6 Infantry (2nd Brigade) died during what was called combatives. This was not during combat operations but in the FOB.

The guy supposedly had a heart condition and that's what killed him. This spread some rumors I think about combatives deaths in Iraq. I remember very well, my class was shut down due to General Dempsey forbidding any units to conduct combatives training of any kind for some weeks.

There was a memo distributed about it. Later it was announced that combatives training was authorized but with many constraints that were almost impossible. The company commander had to be present for all training was one, and risk assessments had to be sent up through the Brigade channels and blessed off before any training conducted and a certified combatives trainer had to be present (which I think a certain level of instructor had to be present too). I will be in Baumholder tomorrow so maybe I can find out the name of the soldier and find the memo for what it's worth.

For the record there is very little or no focus on combatives at the moment over here, though I have heard of units starting it up again. Typical of Germany though. I am an Army combatives instructor and have not been able to teach since I left Ft. Lewis in 2003. As stated, it's part of the newest mandatory concepts of deployment prep, though that seems to depend on the unit unfortunately.

[Asia]

Originally Posted by hoshizawa

Just to help out,

Last year in the 1st Armored Division a soldier from 2/6 Infantry (2nd Brigade) died during what was called combatives. This was not during combat operations but in the FOB.

The guy supposedly had a heart condition and that's what killed him. This spread some rumors I think about combatives deaths in Iraq. I remember very well, my class was shut down due to General Dempsey forbidding any units to conduct combatives training of any kind for some weeks.

There was a memo distributed about it. Later it was announced that combatives training was authorized but with many constraints that were almost impossible. The company commander had to be present for all training was one, and risk assessments had to be sent up through the Brigade channels and blessed off before any training conducted and a certified combatives trainer had to be present (which I think a certain level of instructor had to be present too). I will be in Baumholder tomorrow so maybe I can find out the name of the soldier and find the memo for what it's worth.

For the record there is very little or no focus on combatives at the moment over here, though I have heard of units starting it up again. Typical of Germany though. I am an Army combatives instructor and have not been able to teach since I left Ft. Lewis in 2003. As stated, it's part of the newest mandatory concepts of deployment prep, though that seems to depend on the unit unfortunately.

I was still in Germany and I didn't see this memo or heard about this. I continued my weekly combatives training with now problem, and the CO wasn't always there. If you find out more info on this I would like to know. While you are at the ROCK look up a NEIL CHITWOOD (LT type so speak S L O W L Y). I left 1AD 2BDE just before they moved out. Can't say I miss the place.

[hoshizawa]

The incident happened around December 2003 while we were downrange not in Germany. The memo was distributed there and circulated throughout 2BCT, CSM Santos and Col Baker enforced it at the time. The 1SG of HHC 2nd Brigade even interupted my class to inform me.

Once again this happened in Baghdad, when 2/6 IN was down south near Tuwaitha at their FOB on the airbase.

Asia did you leave in early 2003 or when they moved out recently for training? The units at the rock are currently in training (whole BDE), so getting the name is gonna have to wait. I think I might get it by google due to I heard the family was pretty upset at the Army also, though it was proven he had a heart condition well before the Army, so he should have not been in the first place, unfortunately.

[Asia]

I left in late 2002, so a few months before the offically rolled out for Iraq. I was up at 2BDE S6. SGT Taylor, if he is still there is one of my old joes. CSM Santos was the CSM at 1/4 Infantry before I pcsed there.

I was intrested in this because I was doing alot of work to try to push doing combatives and competeing in BJJ, Sub Grappling, and MMA all together. Thats why I did this article for Stars&Stripes so units and MWR would support sodliers going out to learn more.

[Chuck.Gordon]

Heya LeTerian,

Some of your groundwork (pun intended) may be paying off. There was a meeting here today with several trainers from Hohenhells and Graf with a guy named van Fleet (I think), discussing setting up some training up to (IIRC) level 4.

I'll keep you posted.

cg

[hoshizawa]

Hi all,

I have found out so far the soldier's name is SPC John P. Johnson and was assigned to A Co 2/6 IN, 2BDE, 1AD. The incident happened after training and he supposedly died the next morning due to a heart condition.

I spoke with an NCO who came to my class last week and he stated that 1AD is thinking or trying to get SFC Larsen out for the division set-up, but he hadn't figured the rest of the details. Mr. Van Fleet was in another Stars and Stripes recent article about a month ago in the Manheim area I believe. Looks like things are picking up again as stated.

I have been contracting through MWR here in Germany to units (non divisional or DA civilian types mostly) teaching combatives also. I focus more on weapon retention, draws, target aquisition, and doing all combatives armed and/or restraint techniques. You don't go anywhere downrange without a weapon, so we start with response drills to unarmed assailants and progress. In the course I do use current Army combatives towards the end, due to the main focus being armed and wearing gear. Just about all of the drills end in weapon drawn scenarios with weapons trained or firing on the assailant. Lots of awareness training as well, especially with the multiples possible downrange.

*ps this is not a plug for the courses I run*

[Asia]

Excellent! At least my work has bore some fruit.

The Van Fleets pcsed from here. I first saw Christine when she fought Debi.

[GreySilk]

Is the link suppose to take us to a restricted military site??

[CoyoteG]

as an Active Duty E7 with a Martial Arts background I applaud the Army in trying to bring back an effective H2H system. What I've seen here is a "Flamming" of the use of grappling so predominately in the Army system so I'll address that first.

It's actually fairly easy to take a 19yo PVT and teach him a Jab, Cross, Hook, and uppercut....and front snap and side kick....and then take him and start combining those 6 techniques into a fairly effective means to defend himself/herself....teaching distance, timing, and combinations doesn't take a rocket scientist. On the otherhand.....teaching grappling takes actually a little bit of time and knowledge....people tend to freeze when they are pinned to the ground.... they tend to "Quit" when pinned to the ground and are pummled at the same time....it's important to teach soldiers not only NOT to quit but that in that kind of position they can overcome and "Win".... that kind of "Lesson" applies to other places in combat as well....it instills the "warrior spirit/ethos" after showing 150 Pvt Snuffy that he can defeat a 180lb NCO....it is instilling confidence as well as teaching technique.

After THAT has been done then it's time to pull full kit on and "Relearn" the techniques....to see how they apply with an EXTRA 50lbs....for the attacker to be almost "Clean" as an Iraqi/Afghani would be in a MOUT situation...to show the need for PT to move that kind of extra weight around for prolong periods.

THEN you start combining the techniques from the standing position at 50% with gloves and headgear and show them how the fight can start with both combatants standing and progress to both combatants on the ground rolling around in about 2 seconds.

Has there been very much H2H in Iraq/Afghanistan???...Probaby more between soldiers as they try to deal with stress than between actual combatants on the "Field of Battle".....does that mean that we should then stop training "Combatives"???...Hell NO....it teaches/instills a lot more in soldiers than a couple of self-defense techniques.

What we've added into the mix of combatives is using your weapon for less than lethal applications....take the barrel of your M4 and violently thrust it into the chest of a Man running at you will take that person off their feet and probably take some of the starch out of them...take that same barrel and bring crashing down on the wrist of someone holding a stick and the stick will probably end up on the floor.

As soldiers practice and impliment this H2H training, they will weed out what is ineffective, add techniques, and figure out where in their "Kit of techniques" this needs to be filed....but please don't attack an active duty E7 (SFC Larsen) for trying to fill a void that the Army neglected to fill for Many years....