Modern Weapons?

[Bob Steinkraus]

Does anyone in this forum train with modern weapons as part of their martial arts tradition?

I am not speaking of police or military training, but of (for instance) jujutsu ryu that train with handguns, nightsticks, or knives instead of swords and naginata.

The ju-jutsu ryu-ha in which I am involved has always maintained a strong focus on goshin jutsu. We train with (both defense against and use of) various links of sticks, knives, and guns. On occasion we still practice historical sword disarms and use.

although we practice alot of knief and gun defenses in addition to traditional weapons, it is also encouraged that we learn how to use these weapons in a self defense situation. the better we know modern weapons and how to properly use the the better we can defend against them. our sensei teaches gun safty and protection courses independant of the dojo, and also studied knief fighting for 13 years. ever now and then he'll teach some of these courses to us, and at shodan and above they become alot more intensive. i think that if your main goal in the ma is self defense then it's imperitive that you at least take introductory courses in knief and gun use.

-eric sterner

[Yojimbo558]

Hi there,

Yes there are several styles out there that deal with modern weapons. A big mistake by people searching for "Modern Systems" is not understanding there connection to the past.

Sojutsu ( the art of the spear ) is an integral part of military training today...I know you asked for an art without military training...bear with me for a sec. It is the concepts and knowledge of the spear that modeled use of rifles for bayonet fighting...both in Japan and in Europe.

Baton fighting can be accessed in several styles, in Japanese systems Baton training can be found in two forms "Hanbojutsu" a three foot stick, or "Tanbojutsu" a stick about a foot and a half to two feet in length. These weapons are used for locking up your opponent and restraining them or outright disabling them through the breaking of bones and or separation of soft tissue.

The use for these in Japan, stems from the fact that when you entered a Lords house, you couldn't take your sword with you...but you could take a cane (Hanbo) or a Fan ( Tessen - Iron truncheon designed to look like a fan ) which the Tanbo is often used to represent...which coincidently is about the same length as a police officers Asp baton.

Both of these weapons can be found in Korean systems as well along with Chinese or Philipino( I know I mispelled that ) Arnis or Decuerdas systems . Hand Gun defenses along with retention are also taught for the simple fact that firearms have been around for centuries. In Japan, Ninja would sometimes have a hand gun (flint lock pistol) crafted so that it looked like a short sword sitting in its scabbard. The ideas and concepts of disarming rifle and hand gun attackers have been around for centuries.

Suffice it to say Bujinkan, while teaching ancient weapons also teaches the use of modern ones as does Genbukan and Jinenkan...there are several other Japanese styles as well. On the Korean side to name one there's Hwarang Do that also deals with both ancient and modern weaponry.

The purpose for teaching the ancient weaponry is to teach the student about distance and timing. If you just train hand to hand you're missing out. Because when I swing a sword, because of it's length it comes at you 3 times faster than a punch. If you can get out of the way of this type of an attack, while closing and then eliminating the attacker...then your timing with an unarmed opponent will be that much greater.

So why deal with longer weapons, same in regard to speed and body dynamics. But they also teach you to be more aware of your surroundings. In regards to areas of safety for you and bystanders, to understanding the time to make proper points of entry. All of the above systems teach what your looking for...the knife plays an integral role in all of them.

There are over 5,000 styles to choose from. My recommendation is to check out your local schools. Watch the classes, and ask the students in addition to the instructors about what their doing while addressing your concerns. Keep looking until you find what you're looking for.

[MarkF]

Welcome to E-budo, Yojimbo558!
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Bob,
A weapons question from a judoka. It brings tears to my eyes Are you speaking of offensive use of these weapons or Kodokan goshin jutsu? I don't teach an offensive use of them, except as an attacker in kata, but I do use a (fake) gun and knives and other assorted implements for self defense purposes. Coming up way back, there seemed to be a sword of some type, but since I have never done any of this kata, I don't use them this way. If Jeff Cook is lurking out there, in his Wabujitsu, he does include waza with modern shootin' irons, and other weapons in his syllabus. You may want to check out http://www.wabujitsu.com for the techniques.

The exact page where you will find the requirements for grading in wabujitsu is: http://www.wabujitsu.com/wabujitsu/r...nts_matrix.htm . This is the only gendai art which specifically states that the use of firearms, both semiautomatic weapons and revolvers, is required.

[Yojimbo558]

Hi there!

Modern weapons are an important aspect of training. I agree with the idea that if you're going to teach takeaways, then you should know how to use the weapon.

Knives are carried by many, and by felons are often preferred for the simple fact that crimes where the victim is killed carry a lighter sentence if it's done with a knife instead of a gun. As a result, unfortunately, there are people out there who commit such assaults choosing bladed weapons for this reason.

When training with knives it's important to practise as the attacker since familiarity is your second best defense to not being there. To often however people are in a rush to practise with real or dull knives. Start with a plastic or rubber one, for the simple reason that the person innitiating the attack can follow through without worrying about hurting the individual.

There was one dojo I entered where a Shodan test was taking place. The Sensei attacked his student with a dull knife ( all though the blade is dull the end is still sharp ) as the instructor thrust, the student got off line, but left his hand where it had been. The result was the audience being horrified as the knife penetrated the palm of the defenders hand and came out the otherside.

This is a clear example of someone who had not extensively trainedd with safe training tools, so that he could properly understand the distance and timing necessary to be used against bladed weapons, and should not have been tested for Shodan!

On the matter of training with fire arms, this I feel is also a must. When you look at crime statistics 90% of all women who are kidnapped are killed....Flat out, if someone is trying to abduct you at gun point, the odds of your survival diminish geometrically when you comply and go with them.

If you're going to study gun take aways, then you should also know how to deal with them weapon should it jam, and how to use it if necessary. With gun take aways I recommend using plastic for ones that click when you pull the trigger or the good old air pump bb guns. Either way you want to remove the trigger guards, since most takeaways result in these guards breaking the attackers trigger finger. The reason for the air bb gun is different from its plastic counterpart. The air guns are a great simulation for Handguns, not becuase they look like a 45 or 9 mm but because if you flip the latch the slide draws back!

The reason I emphasize this is that if you grab to high up the wrist towards the gun hand of your attacker. If they pull the trigger, as the slide cycles back to will break your hand, knuckles or rip the skin right off! By doing this with the bb gun, my students are reminded of where to place their hands without having the risk of injury.

There was one person I met who wanted to train with a real gun and blanks...needless to say I refused to teach him. Instead I sent him to a gun show, where a demonstration showed that a blank in a 357 magnum from 5 feet away was still capable of causing a coke can of exploding. I asked him to picture that being his throat, and he moved on to training with safety albiet elsewhere.

Baton training is important as well, for the simple reason that it could easily represent the attacker coming at you with a stick, tire iron, baseball bat, and if you live in an agricultural community then it's easy to include the possibility of a hoe, rake, machette etc.

Modern weapons are important to understand, but the answers for dealing with them, are found in the techniques of the past.

Eric Bookin

[Bob Steinkraus]

Thanks to all who are responding. Interesting as always. (Hi, Mark!)

I am thinking mostly about learning to use modern weapons "offensively", i.e. how to shoot a pistol as well as how to disarm a pistol user. Similarly for knives, sticks, etc.

The basis for this question was formed when I started practicing pistol defenses. I am primarily judo-trained, and I have seen and practiced the traditional Kodokan goshin-jutsu defense against pistol attack. The person I was training under at the time taught me what he claimed was what the Secret Service uses against pistol attack.

The defense always involves jamming the slide (for an automatic) or the hammer (on a revolver) so that the pistol cannot be fired. You shove the web of your hand (between the thumb and forefinger) between the hammer and the firing pin, or stick your finger into the slide to jam it. Yes, your hand or finger is going to get cut. But the pistol will not fire.

This sort of thing is absent in goshin-jutsu. Kime-no-kata, the other self defense kata in judo, spends a lot of time defending against sword attack (as well as kneeling defenses). I am sure this was useful stuff to a 19th century samurai, but I am just not all that worried about being attacked by a sword wielder while sitting in seiza.

This got me thinking. The Japanese (God bless them) seem to have come up with a dizzying variety of weapons, and a jutsu form to teach all of them. The idea of most ryu was to produce complete warriors, and I have always heard it said (as Yojimbo558 states in his post - thank you) that training in a weapon gives insight into weaponless systems. Thus one way or another, I was wondering if there were modern ryu trying to bring about the same cross-training using modern weaponry.

Of course missile weapons like firearms are different from hand weapons like the sword or spear. That was part of my interest, to see if anyone is trying to work out how being a good knife fighter or rifle shot makes one a better hand to hand fighter in general. And of course understanding the uses of a weapon (such as a handgun in the Secret Service defense I describe) gives better, or at least different, ideas on how to defend against it.

I will have a look at Jeff Cook's website and see what it is like.

Thanks to all.

[Yojimbo558]

Hi Bob,

Again, modern weapons should be studied, but remember, firearms have been around for centuries and as far as modernism goes, when people tend to exclude the past they leave things out.

The system I teach and practise in is called Bujinkan, and is made up of 9 different schools. While we train with ancient weapons we also train with modern ones as well.

One of our top instructors, I don't know if you've heard of him, is Jack Hoban. Awhile a few years ago he had been invited to watch the Secret Service train its agents and offer some ideas ( in addition to being one of the most respected members in the Bujinkan, Jack's a former Captain in the U.S. Marine Corps ).

Remember, as far as protection for our nations officials goes. These agents are trained to leap in front of the bullet, taking the shot, while other agents take out the assailant.

Jack surprised them by showing what today amounts to rescues, while in Fuedal Japan it was simply part of the warriors watching one anothers back.

Ok, you are walking next to the person you're assigned to protect ( just for the fun of it we'll say there on your right side ). As your escorting them, an individual approaches from in front of you and at the last second pulls a gun bringing it in for a gut shot or head shot to your "client". Instead of hurling in front of it...try this, this is fun!

Take your right hand and grab your client by their left elbow, neck or waist. Instead of trying to pull them out of harm's way with your arm, step back with your right leg as you pull with your arm. While your doing this your left hand comes up and you're right their for intercepting the weapon ( it should be noted that the force you'll generate by stepping back with your right foot if you're grabbing them by the elbow may end up causing the person you're rescuing to be thrown to the ground ( still it's better than being shot or stabbed ), if you grab the neck or waist you can get them off line while preventing them from falling. Without hindering your ability to intercept the weapon. Now this scenario may give them time to get off one shot, but in this manner neither the client nor the agent is shot! From here there are numberous disarms that can be done such as turning the weapon into the attacker, so that should they manage to fire again they shoot themselves!

(( this strategy was used on the battlefield for getting your buddy out of the way when he was unaware of an incoming sword, Naginata, etc attack that he didn't see...saving him and allowing you to finish off his attacker ))


As far as revolvers go, there's a problem with jabbing the web of your hand into the hammer...yes it will cut you, it does strike with some nice force behind it! But in Martial Arts this is a key target striking area as you get to assault two major organs The Large Intestine...and more importantly the Heart ( which this nerve passes right through on the way to the Large Intestine )....Depending on your health this could be a very detrimental strategy. But if you choose to ignore this, then it still leaves the fact that, the pain of that hammer striking will cause a distraction and a moments hesitation on your part...far to long for an assassin who is literally right there.

If you grab the wheel of a revolver, it can't turn, and at most is a one shot weapon. If you grab the slide of an automatic, it can't cycle back, and thus can't fire.

Strategies for dealing with firearms, knives etc are regularly addressed in Bujinkan, Genbukan, & Jinnenkan.

Hope you find this interesting...

Eric Bookin

[MarkF]

Hi, Eric,
You gave an interesting description of defending against the handgun. Didn't Jet Li remove the entire slide from Riggs' semiauto in Lethal Weapon 4? HI, Bob!

Kodokan goshin jutsu does address the more immediate of personal self defense by blocking or parrying, but Bob is correct. It isn't quite enough. I have incorporated some Shodokan Aikido wrist locks to improve the odds. There are some of it's own in the Judo syllabus but these locks are quicker and more uselfull than simple parrying. Eric, you have been visiting the Booj forum, haven't you? BTW: There is a book for auction at Ebay. It is M. Hatsuumi's knife and pistol defense book and is going rather chaeaply, at least so far. Check in the Ebay forum if you haven't all ready a copy yourself.

Bob,
I am not sure exactly what Jeff teaches but what he does has a lot of judo in it and he does require proper offensive as well as defensive uses of the modern firearm. The page I gave you only mentions it so email Jeff. He's OK if you like military guys

[Jeff Cook]

Thanks for the plug, Mark!

Being defensively oriented, I like to teach situational awareness first, then move on to carrying methods for firearms and how to recognize someone who is carrying and where they are carrying it, marksmanship techniques, and disarms.

Many successful defenses against handgun assaults involved having the "victim" recognize the developing situation, perceiving the position of the carried (but sometimes concealed) weapon, and attacking the attacker before he has a chance to pull his weapon or as he is pulling the weapon.

Many smart handgun criminals know to stay out of arm's reach with their weapon, therefore disarms become progressively more difficult the longer the situation develops. As previously stated by other posters here, the disarm, if it is going to happen, has to be initiated as soon in the confrontation as possible.

All of that aside, my FAVORITE modern weapon, above all others, is the walking cane. This is a HIGHLY underated tool for self-defense. It can be carried anywhere in the world. You can poke, thrust, swing, jab, sweep, throw, redirect, block and executed all manner of joint locks and chokes with it. (And Yes, Mark, to a limited extent, you can GRAPPLE with it! ) You can do weapons disarms with it. I HIGHLY recommend all of you to check this weapon out. Master Mark Shuey (CaneMasters Int'l) produces a very fine quality line of combat canes; he also sells training tapes, provides seminars, etc. He is a quality man and a quality martial artist. He also provides instruction in more traditional cane endeavors such as kata with the cane (he is currently ranked #1 in the U.S. in a number of large sport-MA organizations). He has extensive write-ups to be published in Black Belt Magazine and four other MA periodicals shortly, and has endorsements for his cane instruction system from a number of notable MA-ist's, such as Bill Wallace. His website is http://www.canemasters.com . Check it out!

I currently carry (for security/protection gigs) a prototype LE weapon he is just starting to produce and market - a 24" mini-cane with all sorts of neat little carvings in it to assist in trapping, throwing, and pressure point manipulation. I can personally vouch for the ease of learning this tool, and the dramatic potential for it as a self-defense weapon.

Eric S. and Eric B.,

I imagine you guys have some walking-cane training under your belts, especially you Eric B., being from the Bujinkan. What are your feelings regarding the walking cane's potential as a modern weapon?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Edited by Jeff Cook on 07-29-2000 at 08:38 AM]

[Yojimbo558]

Jeff,

Thanks for including the web stite for canemasters, they provide some great products for reasonable prices. Next pay check I'll have to figure out which one I want...and I can see it figuring into some x-mass presents for some friends!

In regard to my opinion of walking sticks or canes...these are among the most beautiful weapons in the whole world! As you pointed out they are legal, and can be taken anywhere. My friends in the Bujinkan & I take them onto planes without anyone taking a second glace for the simple fact that to the public...these aren't weapons.

The Hanbo ( a straight 3' stick ) or the cane are among my favorite weapons. In addition to providing the convenience of a walking stick, you are not telegraphing to an attacker that you have a weapon to defend yourself ( excellent for bone breaking & soft tissue tearing ). The walking stick or cane is a fantastic grappling weapon.

I have won numberous converts from several officers in Law Enforcement. Most of these agencies teach their people to strike twice, then back off and assess ( repeating if necessary ). When I show them how to use their batons, pr-24's ( tonfa's ), ASP's as grappling weapons it shocks them. As they've never seen them used in this manner.

Here's a simple example to play with:

The attacker throws a punch ( let's say with their right hand.

The officer ( holding the baton in their left hand ) steps to the left of the punch. Using their right hand to parry the attackers fist, while stiking the solar plexus with the baton.

The officer now pivots, their right hand grabbing the attackers right wrist, while the officers left hand makes a motion like an upper cut ( since the baton is still sideways inbetween the attackers solar plexus and their tricep, this locks the body and drives them to the ground ( to keep them from rolling you can step on their foot or turn in a circlular pattern while executing the uppercut ). From here the officer after driving them to ground can put kneel down putting their right knee on the baton ( this drives the baton into the tricep and into the suspects upper torso ). From here the suspect is not only trapped but the officers hands are now free to either search the suspect while they're trapped face down or draw their gun should the suspect suddenly have his friends show up!

AS much fun and enjoyment as I've had teaching Law Enforcement...the success stories I enjoy the most are the results I've achieved with the handicapped.

During my last trip to Puerto Rico I taught a seminar focusing on the use of the walking stick. While many people showed up including a Puerto Rican police officer, there was one individual that stood out in particular. A young man who had been in a striking style, he'd been in an accicdent, and as a result one of his legs was significantly shorter than the other. In addition to wearing one platform shoe he had two canes so he could walk and stand level. He showed up to the Dojo Cho a week before I arrived, he'd seen my flyer and wondered since the seminar focused on walking sticks if it might be possible for him to participate...Adalberto, told him he didn't know but to please show up.

When I arrived he was among the 30 attendees. During the seminar he was shocked to find that he was able to participate fully. To see the joy and confidence at being able to fully participate with his peers once more was one of the most gratifying classes I've ever taught. I showed him how to form a tripod so to speak with two of his feet and one cane for stability while striking with the other. He was able to do everything that the non-handicapped were able to do, and when he ran into problems I showed him simple solutions for overcoming them.

Another story that was very gratifying ( I used to teach as an instructor in Model Mugging...a women's self defense program in which women go ful force when they face a fully padded assailant ).

The lady attended a class we taught at a local junior college. There were 28 participants ( the classes covers defense against simulated assaults, muggings, carjackings, attempted rapes and murder ). It was a very gripping course in which it forced the women to face situations that were every bit as strong psychologically as it did physically. The mothers health had been degrading, and as a result her confidence in almost everything was fading. Things she had been able to due only a few years before were now tasking her. Although she expected to fail the course, she was there only because her daughter had refused to take the course without her.

Since I was fully padded ( I used to wear a suit that through on about an additional 60 lbs ), I was well protected. So when it came to her, I showed her how to use her cane as a weapon ( stiking and grappling ). The other students were shocked and surprised by the power of the thuds she obtained when striking me with her cane. While she found out that this wonderful stick, was far more than just a means of walking. The scenarios we use are chilling....and she did every bit as well as the others. The most gratifying thing about these type of courses is seeing their change in manner ( posture, eye contact, the tone and loudness of their speaking voice ).

So in closing yes, I'd say that the cane or walking stick today is perhaps the most readily available legal weapons today, remaining one of the least taught or undrestood.

Fortunately there are systems out there that do teach them. Perhaps as time goes one can only hope this will change

Hey Mark, glad you enjoyed the prior description, and Yep Jet Li was outstanding in Leathal Weapon 4...His movies are alot of fun. Apparently he really enjoyed that role since it was the first time in his career that he portrayed a villain. At any rate have fun training.

Eric Bookin

[Joseph Svinth]

For some online discussions of cane work, read the Barton-Wright and Vigny articles at http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm .

Also visit Ken Pfrenger's site at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...hillelagh.html

[Jeff Cook]

Eric,

Wonderful stories! Thanks for sharing. I too am very enthusiastic about cane work.

Joe,

Thank you very much for the links.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Yojimbo558]

Hi Jeff,

If you don't already have it, Hatsumi Sensei has a wonderful book out called "Stick Fighting". If you don't already have it, it belongs in your library. I enjoyed it so much that a few years ago I was handing it out for birthdays or X-Mass.

There are also some great videos out on the use of the Hanbo. Hatsumi has one from the Quest series that gives a series of kata from Kukishinden Ryu. If you go to Richard Van Donks web site for American Bujinkan, you can order that, the book, along with videos by other Bujinkan Shihan on the use of the Hanbo or cane by Richard Van Donk, Pedro Felitas, Ed Martin or I forget the web address but for Dick Severence's dojo ( you can find all of these off the Bujinkan's Yellow Pages from winjutsu.com ).

A friend of mine showed me some of the Hanbo Videos by Shoto Tanemura from the Genbukan, and these are also outstanding!

Take care,

Eric Bookin

[MarkF]

Hi, Jeff,
Every time I think of eclectic styles, your comes to mind, especially since it is the only one I know which includes shootin' irons in its syllabus. Your welcome

Eric,
I am still trying to understand how he removed that slide. I had never seen Li before so yes, it was a lot of fun. My "collection" contains one handgun, and that is a SA longcolt 45.

Also, Jeff and Eric, I have been using a cane for offensive techniques and grappling (being disabled for a while does have its merits). That was when I began to try different things with it when I used it for teaching self defense (I have never been big on books and tapes for teaching purposes). I found, almost instantly, the offensive, but defensive, uses of a cane, and one was for disarming someone with a pistol. The newer techniques (or older ones I hadn't used) I utilize come from teaching the disabled, particularly the blind. Blind students offer "insights" into everyday occurences which are not often thought of by folks with no "handicap." Blindfolding uke gives new and different perspectives on ukemi, and a sort of "blind man's bluff" can be very educational AND humiliating. Sometimes, that is when the advanced student drops their hands instead of hooking the thumbs on the obi (a definite no-no). Some ideas come from just observing people who need a cane, and those who must rely on other senses to take up the slack of one which has been lost. Also, the Barton-Wright artcle(s) I can vouch for.