Kata in Aikido

[HinodeBuddha]

I am interested in your opinions regarding kata in Aikido. Outside of weapons practice do you feel there are kata in Aikido?

Lyle Laizure

[Gil Gillespie]

The standard answer is "No," because O'Sensei ruled them out, insisting on practice with a living partner to feel and learn aikido. But as I've watched all this over the years it appears to me that kihon waza ARE kata: paired kata, much as the kumitachi or kumijo. Uke and nage have specific roles, timings, movements, etc. Only in higher kyu training does the strictness of kihon give way to kaeshi waza, jiu waza, ran dori, leading eventually (and hopefully) to the individual expression of the art and the ultimate takemus' we all strive for.

[don]

Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
The standard answer is "No," because O'Sensei ruled them out, insisting on practice with a living partner to feel and learn aikido. But as I've watched all this over the years it appears to me that kihon waza ARE kata: paired kata, much as the kumitachi or kumijo. Uke and nage have specific roles, timings, movements, etc. Only in higher kyu training does the strictness of kihon give way to kaeshi waza, jiu waza, ran dori, leading eventually (and hopefully) to the individual expression of the art and the ultimate takemus' we all strive for.

My feel for it as well. Cf, though, Sugano on the topic at http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...?ArticleID=947

[Ron Tisdale]

Well, here's my take on it...quoted from a previous thread on the subject. The full thread is available here:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...highlight=kata




Hi guys,

Well, I *am* a *little* silly looking...

Nice post Chris...since I have some exposure to aikido outside of yoshinkan, I see where you are comming from...and frankly, this isn't the first time I've heard of the "stiffness" of some yoshinkan students. My point is, there are many who don't suffer from that...and they are not all 8th dan either (far from it). I think many would be surprised to see it...but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Back to kata... from "Dynamic Aikido", by Gozo Shioda:



quote:
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Though aikido is normally practiced in kata form, this does not mean that the movement is "dead"; on the contrary, each repetition must be effective. The essense of aikido practice is that both partners perfect their movements and try to obtain real strength by applying the techniques correctly. Though aikido differs from other sports in that it goes beyond the normal concepts of victory and defeat, the object of controlling the opponent and gaining superiority must never be forgotten. At the same time, as mentioned earlier, the aikidoka must always strive for "mental harmony".
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Now, here we have one of the "founder's" long time students, who trained with him both pre and post war, making a definitive statement about the use of kata in aikido. Shioda Sensei goes even further; from his statement, we can infer that it is through kata that "both partners perfect their movements and try to obtain real strength".

In my own experience, a technique that is truly controling, but done with flow, power and speed, is devestating to a partner who does not understand the proper movements. Even a technique built around 4th control, like suigetsuki yonkajo osae ichi or ni. This technique contains an atemi from shite to uke's face, which uke must block, or be hit by. And even though I consider 4th control to be a relatively "weak" control, if done with the proper body movement, especially on the 2nd technique, it is possible to slam your partner's face into the mat, even if you miss the actual pressure point.

Kata is not just one person performing movements regardless of what your partner is doing. It is two people harmonizing to produce one technique. One movement involving two people. If either one doesn't know their part, the possibility of injury goes up dramatically. Therefore, it is necessary for both people to learn the kata, slowly with focus and control. But that doesn't mean the movement stays that way...as both partners progress, the kata can be (and is) done with varying levels of speed, power, control, etc.

One of the complaints often heard about aikido is that "the object of controlling the opponent and gaining superiority" is sometimes forgotten. Properly performing the movements in a technique with "real strength" using kata is one way this complaint can be silenced.

Shioda Sensei again;


quote:
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Thus, since aikido can be practised as energetically or gently as desired, it can be enjoyed by people of all ages and both sexes.
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Quotes from pages 17 and 18 of Dynamic Aikido, Kodansha International, paperback edition, 1977.

Ron Tisdale

[Chuck.Gordon]

Of course there's kata in aikido. Very few Japanese budo DON'T do kata.

Not the Okinawan karate kata, BTW. Kata, to most any budoka is a paired exercise with one partner having a prescribed action and the other a prescribed response. The end result is pre-determined. Each plays a specific role in order to learn (from BOTH sides) the underlying principles, the structure of the technique, the rhythm and distancing of the interaction, etc.

In some systems (such as aikido) kata are less formalized. In others (such as Takeuchi Ryu) they are strictly detailed and regimented.

Nonetheless, two people, practicing a technique of which the outcome is a foregone conclusion, is kata.

Kata is not and should not be considered dead, stagnant, unlively. Quite the contrary, there is little feeling so lively as being on the wrong end of a stick or sword or wrist with someone who is alert, who is THERE, who is engaged and attached.

Chuck

[David T Anderson]

There's certainly kata in my aikido dojo....we do a thing called Kihon Doza, which is a series of movements practiced individually. There isn't a great emphasis put on it [Iai kata and kumitachi is more important], but it's there. It's a little like Tai Chi, but much more sweeping and forceful.

I find doing the kihon doza is a good way to practice footwork and Ki projection [or 'body English', as I like to think of it], and it gets you gobs of respect when you practice it in hotel gyms....

[Chuck.Gordon]

Originally posted by David T Anderson
There's certainly kata in my aikido dojo....we do a thing called Kihon Doza

To me, kihon dosa is not kata, it's really undo (exercise). The idea of kata as a solo performance is not really a Japanese budo concept. Kata is (almost always) paired.

Aside from a few isolated instances (such as the long jo forms in aikijo), the solo performance thing is pretty much Okinawan (or Korean/Chinese/etc).

Chuck

[SMJodo]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the information.

[Phil Farmer]

I am sorry to be late to this thread but thought I would put my two cents in. Yoseikan has several kata that are paired kata. Jutsuri no kata is a demonstration of five very specific techniques. Hiori no kata is a demonstration of reversals. Tai sabaki no kata is a demonstration of techniques using the basic body shifting of Yoseikan. Sutemi no kata is a demonstration of the hallmark sacrifice throws of Yoseikan. Additionally, we have a shime waza kata and a kansetsu waza kata. These are all in addition to the iai and ken kata that we practice.

I have always been taught that these kata function as the benchmarks for technique. They are performed like a play that has many layers of meaning. The more you know about Yoseikan, the more meaning you can find. Remember that Mochizuki was a highly ranked student of Kano and Mifune and he continued to hold great value in kata as a way to preserve history and technique. In the Yoseikan World Federation, the creation of his son, Hiroo Mochizuki, there are numerous kata for karate, ken, iai, and even some that have elements of tai chi. Again, the point is to preserve history and technique.

I have encountered many practitioners who brush kata off as archaic and useless. Often these people have created their own style, so they have no history to preserve. Not necessarily anything wrong with that but just the way it is. There are a few stories of Japan where the discussion among schools of swordsmanship was kata versus kumite. One in particular says that the master who only did kata defeated the master of the school who did kumite and they all became his students. Kata is just waving hands and feet unless you are sincerely in combat with an opponent while you are doing kata.

Sorry, just my two cents.

Phil Farmer

[Ron Tisdale]

Another good link...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...sp?ArticleID=5

[S Ford-Powell]

lots of paired kata in Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Aiki jutsu.

What about Tomiki Aikido (randori no Kata?)

[J. B. Tinoco]

As I've never realy heard of kihon dosa, I got curious about it. Is there any link where I can learn a little more about it? Or could anyone tell me a bit more about the subject?

Thanks
João

[PRehse]

Originally posted by S Ford-Powell
lots of paired kata in Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Aiki jutsu.

What about Tomiki Aikido (randori no Kata?)

Shodokan (Tomiki) Aikido is unabashed about it. The bulk of our practice is kata based.

Randori no kata, also known as the Junanahon is one of the core kata sets. The techniques are the ones allowed in full resistance randori hence the name.

The other major kata set is the Koryu Goshin no Kata, and there are others.

But generally speaking if there is a defined attack and a defined response - that is a kata. It is during the various levels of randori training that one moves away from the kata to free-flowing expression but it is the kata which forms the base.

[Ron Tisdale]

What are kihon dosa?

There are several good links available here and on the aikido journal site. If you use the search function on this site and there, you will turn up a lot of good information. Also, if you use any of Gozo Shioda's books, you'll see good pictures and descriptions there. For now, check out this link, which will also reference an article available on the other site I mentioned:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...ght=kihon+dosa

If you have further questions after reading this material, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best Regards,
Ron

[J. B. Tinoco]

Hi Ron

Thank you very much. Your informations were quite good. I found I already knew a little bit about kihon dosa; I just didn't know the name. Some of those movements are explained in "Dynamic Aikido", wich I've already consulted.

Talking about Kata, I think they are a bit like a way of keeping some knowlege in the purest possible way. Of course one can't preform randori (or a Karate combat for example) the same way we practice Kata, but most of the principles needed to do so, may be there. That's why, at least I think so, most of the times Katas are where we can realy tell one ryu from another.

Cheers