Serge Mol book

[Bradenn]

Hi
I was at my local bookshop a few days ago and saw an (apparently) new book by Serge Mol called "Classical Fighting Arts of Japan". Unfortunately it was sealed so I couldn't flip through it. Has anyone here read it? Any good? I'm not looking for techniques but rather an overview and histor of the various ryu e.g. Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu.
Thanks in advance.

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Braden Nicols

[Alex Meehan]

I purchased that book when it appeared some time ago, and it is an excellent read. It is well put together, has some really very nice photographs and offers an insight into the overall field of koryu Jujutsu.

As a Bujinkan member, though, I found his bias somewhat . . . interesting. Serge Mol gives a small mention (a few pages at the most) to a number of Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Ryu lineages, yet manages to avoid making reference to the Bujinkan schools.

This is quite an achievement, considering the Bujinkan versions of these schools, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu and Kukishinden (Ryu) Happo Hiken, are by far and away the most well known and widely practiced variants and are generally recognised as authentic koryu. Serge Mol’s studied directly with Tanaka Fumon Soke, head of a variant of Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu, yet the lineage charts simply omit Takamatsu and his successor(s) so that it appears that Tanaka Fumon Soke’s school is the main line.

In what appears to be an otherwise well researched and well written book, this omission is conspicuous. That minor political gripe aside, Serge Mol’s book is a lovely thing in its own right and is well worth owning. There are very few quality books on Koryu budo out there, so new ones are to be encouraged I think.

[fifthchamber]

Hi all.
Ditto to the above post...Despite some 'missing' bits in the lineage lines contained in the books and a decided bias toward any Koryu associated with Tanaka Fumon Sensei the book is an excellent one for Jujutsu and well worth the money.
There are many sections on all aspects of Jujutsu and closer looks at quite a few of the bigger Ryuha around.
This one, Draegers works, and the Koryu Books trio would make an excellent base of writings on Koryu arts...Get it.
Abayo.

[arnold11]

I see several posts claiming that Mol, overlooked the Bujinkan schools. Now it can be argued that many of the schools arent there because they arent recognized at legitimate lineages by anyone outside of the Bujinkan. THIS IS NOT A SLAM. Just a statement of fact. However......look in the beginning of the book- page xii
Grandmaster Tanaka Fumon's credential include

Kukishin Ryu 19th Soke
Koto Ryu Soke Dairi
ShindenFudo Ryu Soke Dairi

As a Bujinkan practioner, I find these claims very interesting....

Arnold Davies

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by arnold11

Koto Ryu Soke Dairi
ShindenFudo Ryu Soke Dairi

From what I understand, Tanaka Fumon is associated with Kaminaga Shigemi, one of Ueno Takashi sensei's students.

[Alex Meehan]

>>> Now it can be argued that many of the schools arent there because they arent recognized at legitimate lineages by anyone outside of the Bujinkan.<<<<

Hmmm, well, the theory that the reason Mol doesn’t mention the Bujinkan Schools is that they are not recognised doesn’t really add up. The most recent lineage charts I have seen for the schools relating to Tanaka Fumon and Kaminaga Shigemi, printed in the Ueno Takashi Sensei 20th Anniversary Memorial booklet (reprinted 2002), state that he (Kaminaga Shigemi) inherited Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu from Ueno Takashi, who got it from Takamatsu Toshitsugu. Likewise for:

Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Jujutsu
Hontai Kishin Chosui Ryu Kukishinden Dakentaijutsu
Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu (note, this seems to be a totally different school to Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu)
Koto Ryu Koppojutsu

So clearly, it’s not that the schools aren’t recognised by other groups, because he claims the same source for his schools as we do – Takamatsu Sensei.

Instead it seems that Kaminaga Shigemi disputes some of the soke-ships held by Hatsumi Sensei (and Tanemura Sensei, it seems, as if I am not mistaken, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu is one of the schools Tanemura Sensei claims to have inherited from Sato Kinbei Sensei).

It’s also probably worth noting that many teachers of the Kuki-derived arts tend to refer to their schools as Kukishin Ryu as a kind of shorthand, although the actual name may be different. For example, Hatsumi Sensei often does this, when his school is called Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu. The Kuki family art, Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, also does this. In fact, I don’t think there is an actual Kukishin Ryu. (I could be wrong though).

Also mentioned in the same booklet is Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo, although the implication is that Ueno Takashi was not Soke, but rather a Menkyo holder. Interestingly, the same booklet lists Hatsumi Masaaki Sensei as a Menkyo Kaiden holder in Shinto Tenshin Ryu Kenpo Jojutsu Toritejutsu Denkei and Asayama Ichiden Ryu Heiho.

Does anyone know what Soke Dairi means?

Alex Meehan

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Alex Meehan
Instead it seems that Kaminaga Shigemi disputes some of the soke-ships held by Hatsumi Sensei (and Tanemura Sensei, it seems, as if I am not mistaken, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu is one of the schools Tanemura Sensei claims to have inherited from Sato Kinbei Sensei).

Just for clarification, Tanemura sensei does not dispute Hatsumi sensei as being soke of Takagi Yoshin ryu jutaijutsu.

From what I understand, Kaminaga only disputed that Hatsumi sensei's TYR should be called jutaijutsu and not jujutsu. I think this dispute was to Hiden's editor after Hatsumi sensei's TYR was called jujutsu in a article.

[John Lindsey]

Tanaka Fumon is associated with Kaminaga Shigemi,

Two years ago I was shown an anonymous letter that was sent to people who participated in that embu for Ueno a few years ago. It is suspected that this person used the embu brochure to get the names of those who were there. In this letter, the author attempts to show that Tanaka Fumon and Kaminaga are rogue martial artists who have formed their own budo organization and teach low class martial arts. I remember something about Kaminaga being described as a “short, bald and ugly man.” It is suspected that the author of this letter is someone in the media, possibly connected to Hiden Journal or at least a professional writer. The letter was supposedly well written. I never heard who this was, but I think it happened after Kaminaga wrote to Hiden Journal and complained about Hatsumi S. using the term Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu. Maybe Kaminaga pissed off someone?

What was surprising was the level of detail that this author knew about both of these teacher’s history, to include accusations of documents that might not be what they are supposed to be. This was a well thought out attack on these two gentlemen. But, the author didn’t have the guts to sign his name, so that does hurt his message.

While I am neutral in my regard for these teachers, I just wanted to point out this little story. Anyone else hear about this letter?

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Alex Meehan
Does anyone know what Soke Dairi means?

I think it means "representative of the headmaster."

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Alex Meehan
Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu (note, this seems to be a totally different school to Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu)

Also mentioned in the same booklet is Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo, although the implication is that Ueno Takashi was not Soke, but rather a Menkyo holder.

By comparing the list of techniques of SFR taijutsu and SFR jutaijutsu (not to be confused with SFR dakentaijutsu), it appears that they may be the same school. Both have the same kamae and kata, but I could be wrong.

Ueno Takashi sensei learned SFR kenpo from another person, not associated with Takamatsu sensei.

[Daruma]

Dairi Generally translates as Assistant or representive,

[ghp]

"...Dairi Generally translates as Assistant or representive,..."

"...I think it means "representative of the headmaster..."

Yes, both responses are correct. Here in the US, though, we're (sadly) more accustomed to its bastardized form, Soke-dai, as used by groups thinking it means "designated inheritor"!

There also could be more than one soke-dairi; and I suppose a dairi might later be selected to succeed the soke -- but it's not a "done deal", or so I believe. After all, the dairi are those trusted "lieutenants" who "stand in lieu of" the soke for administrative and/or policy matters.

Regards,
Guy

[ghp]

I need to qualify a statement I made:

"There also could be more than one soke-dairi;..."

If I'm not mistaken, Daitoryu had a number of "soke-dairi" during Takeda Sokaku's later years, although I don't think they used the actual term "soke dairi." I think they used a term similar to kyoju-dairi[but that doesn't sound right -- that would translate to "Representative Classroom"]. I saw a photo in "Hiden Koryu Bujutsu" years back showing a Daitoryu kanban stating something like that.

Any Daitoryu-Dudes out there who can confirm or deny my statement? Although I hate being corrected -- -- I hate giving out incorrect information even more!

Cheers,
Guy

[Kendoguy9]

hello all,

I can write more on this when I have more time (I have to be at work in just a few min.). But yes in Daito-ryu there is something called a kyoju dairi. it is a special teaching license granted. It means that the person with the kyoju dairi may teach in place of the headmaster ANYWHERE. Officially no one is allowed to teach outside of their own dojo without one ie. no seminars or other open formats. The term soke dairi is more recent and has only been awarded to Kondo Katsuyuki sensei. Takeda Tokimune is the first person to call himself soke of Daito-ryu. His father refered to himself as Somucho and Honbucho, titles Kondo sensei has claimed because he is the ONLY person who knows ALL of the mainline Daito-ryu, but is not a Takeda family member and cannot accept the title soke. I hope this helps a little for more information check out some of Mr. Stan Pranin's works... he has great info on Daito-ryu.

gambatte!!!

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Kendoguy9
hello all,

I can write more on this when I have more time (I have to be at work in just a few min.). But yes in Daito-ryu there is something called a kyoju dairi. it is a special teaching license granted. It means that the person with the kyoju dairi may teach in place of the headmaster ANYWHERE. Officially no one is allowed to teach outside of their own dojo without one ie. no seminars or other open formats. The term soke dairi is more recent and has only been awarded to Kondo Katsuyuki sensei. Takeda Tokimune is the first person to call himself soke of Daito-ryu.

All pretty much accurate.

Originally posted by Kendoguy9
His father refered to himself as Somucho and Honbucho, titles Kondo sensei has claimed because he is the ONLY person who knows ALL of the mainline Daito-ryu, but is not a Takeda family member and cannot accept the title soke.

Doesn't the Takumakai use those titles as well? Anyway, yes, Kondo is pretty much alone in the mainline, despite the fact that there are a number of folks who try to dispute that. However, I think that it's important to note that there are at least three other clear and undisputed Daito-ryu schools with lineages direct to Sokaku Takeda, so Kondo is hardly the only source of Daito-ryu extant today.

Best,

Chris