Bujinkan????

I recently saw several Videos of Masaki Hatsumi, demonstrating Yari as well as Shuriken and Unarmed methods.

I was thoroughly amazed at how BAD at these things he was!

In one scene he was surrounded by about 10 of his sempai, he was throwing shuriken at them and did not hit ONE, he was also throwing Powder and one exploded in his own face!!! he then attampted to role of and got stuck in a hedge!! It was comical!!

Some of the unarmed stuff was ok - but was just Basic JuJutsu as far as i could see and was different every time a different sempai showed it! Surley if this was traditional or structured Bujutsu the Techniques would be the same each time you did them??

The yari and sword work was a mocery of Bujutsu!
i have practiced Ono ha itto ryu Kenjutsu, Tenshin Hyoho Kukami Shin Ryu Bo Jutsu and Naginata, Enshin Ryu Iaido and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido. The sword work that Hatsumi desplayed left him open to attack at every point in his technique, he did not cover his centre line and his cuts where terrible! At one point he drops the Yari and pretends that it was intended - he also acidently digs it into the floor!

I had studied Bujinkan (2years) and found it to be very modern and not holding any of the key principles of weapon combat. I have seen many very good Bujinkan practitioners on the Unarmed front but after studying traditional styles, i have seen that this is just Basic JJ with a slightly different twist!

Also why does Bujinkan choose to go above 10th dan? The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good. thanks

Not trying to slay Bujinkan Practitioners, just wondering what people think about Hatsumi and Bukjinkan? My observations are scary considering his popularity!!!

Thanks
Chris

[kirigirisu]

Well said, Rick.

The answers to the rest of his queries are readily available in the FAQ.

Troll.

[paolo_italy]

Mate,

Once I read somewhere that if one has problems with the bujinkan, then he should just find someone at the appropriate level and challenge him.

Be prepared to be surprised .

Cheers,

Why did you post? You think Hatsumi S. Sucks? Then move on, shake your head whatever and walk on. Simple isn't it?

Thanks people - not really what i ment - i did infact say that i have seen many good Bujinkan people, just wondered why there was such a marked difference between Bujinkan and other Bujutsu Ryuha. and Why the soke seems to be quite a poor budo ka?

You ask what people think of him? Well the ones who study with him think he is great. Those that don't do not study with him. Simple again.

Good stuff- as long as people get something from their training that is all that matters, but when people proclaim to be doing traditional Bujutsu and they do something that does not resemble traditional Japanese Bujutsu then i kenda get a bit anoyed.

I have an idea though, maybe you could go show him how to really use weapons, save him from his embarrasment

Ok - will do !

Honestly, this is troll behavior

Sorry! just pointing some stuff out that i noticed and wondered whether there was a reason for the things i saw?

Cheers for the responces anyways guys.

Chris

[Rikimaru]

I totally agree with Richard, William and Paolo.

Just another thing: your question on ranking above 10th DAN - there's enough information and discussion which should clarify this...

Once I read somewhere that if one has problems with the bujinkan, then he should just find someone at the appropriate level and challenge him.

I Have and wasn't suprised - how high should i go? the guy was 5th Dan. dismiss what i saw if you will thats fine.

Just another thing: your question on ranking above 10th DAN - there's enough information and discussion which should clarify this...

Can you point me too it.

Thanks
Chris

[Shinkuri]

Some of the unarmed stuff was ok - but was just Basic JuJutsu as far as i could see and was different every time a different sempai showed it! Surley if this was traditional or structured Bujutsu the Techniques would be the same each time you did them??

Your statements reveal the depth of your understanding.
If you do decide to continue studying in the Bujinkan, this little statement will haunt you till the rest of your days.

If the man is disappointed in what he saw in Hatsumi Soke's videos and chooses to express that, he's well within his rights to do so.

I think it's just a case of an aspiring budoka who has come to learn a few principles of movement that he is looking for in the videos and feels he is not finding. Cheers and good luck to him.

What do *I* think of Hatsumi Soke and the Bujinkan?

I think there is more meat in every move Hatsumi makes than I could digest in a lifetime. I am EXTREMELY satisfied with my training and the quality of my instructors as well as my instructors instructors.

I, however, cannot lay claim to having mastered the key principles of weapon combat, so I may well be deluded!

The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Clarification is not neccessary. It's just the way it is. As you say, the dan grading system was _invented_ to begin. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Budo, beyond it's being another training tool and distraction.

Traditional AND structured? Hmm...maybe those two ideas aren't as compatible as you have been led to think.

Having said that, the videos are funny in the sense that I can never play them for non-Bujinkan budoka and impress anyone. The reaction is always just as with the fellow above, "No way! They're doing it wrong! There's too many holes in their technique!"

I just laugh at that point, and offer them another beer.

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
The yari and sword work was a mocery of Bujutsu!
i have practiced Ono ha itto ryu Kenjutsu, Tenshin Hyoho Kukami Shin Ryu Bo Jutsu and Naginata, Enshin Ryu Iaido and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido.

Since you brought up mocery of bujutsu, I saw a video of an embu which had Tanaka Fumon doing a demonstration with his sword. I'm not going to go into details, because I'm not here to embarrass anyone, but it was not a pretty sight. Point is, people do make mistakes and everyone is not perfect, including your instructor.

[paolo_italy]

hello,

in brief:

1) how high should you go: it depends on you. If you find someone saying he's better than you, than there's your challenge, man. In my dojo it happens occasionally with local machomen: they usually don't pass the PT

2) the point is not that grades go *above*, but *into*. To keep it simple, when your reach 10th Dan (Shihan), in order to be a Tatsujin (complete man) your study will proceed into 5 sub-levels, according to the Godai. You are 10th Dan Chigyo (1st sublevel), 10th Dan Suigyo (2nd sublevel) and the like.

Moreover, do some research and you'll see that Hatsumi sensei has been appointed with an high honor by one of the most importat sword associations of Japan.

Again, my kata (as many of us in bujinkan) is not a perfect one, but it works. I have tested in real threatening scenarios due to my job, and consider that I was taught from a student of our teacher...

Maybe you simply can't get what rises from the videos... Just change your perspective if you wanna stay safe. Otherwise, keep going alone with your ego. No flame intended, just MHO.

With ninjutsu, however, many of the 'mistakes' are not mistakes at all.

Dropping your weapon at times can be a very powerful technique, though that may or may not have been the case in the video segment in question. Nonetheless, a consistent theme in Hatsumi Soke's training is to 'keep going', no matter what. Another common theme is that of putting traditional items to non-traditional uses (think 'weapons' or 'dan-grading system') All of his videos contain bits that look to me at first like mistakes, but as my training goes on, those points become increasingly interesting.

[paolo_italy]

Originally posted by Tamdhu

Having said that, the videos are funny in the sense that I can never play them for non-Bujinkan budoka and impress anyone. The reaction is always just as with the fellow above, "No way! They're doing it wrong! There's too many holes in their technique!"

I just laugh at that point, and offer them another beer.

this is the big advantage of x-kan! for other traditions and gendai budo (I include here judo-akido-karate too), if you do something different from what they're used to see, you're wrong...

Pssst! Keep this secret...

Go take up Brazilian Jujutsu. Bye-bye.

Thanks for the responces

I think it's just a case of an aspiring budoka who has come to learn a few principles of movement that he is looking for in the videos and feels he is not finding.

I have been studying traditional Japapanese MA's for around 16 years, I have studied Directly under Okabayashi sensei, Menkyo in Ono Ha itto ryu as well as Fumon Tanaka.

I think there is more meat in every move Hatsumi makes than I could digest in a lifetime. I am EXTREMELY satisfied with my training and the quality of my instructors as well as my instructors instructors.

I am glad that you are enjoying your training, i am just saying that from my experience (personal perspective) i have found most Bujinkan practitioners make Hatsumi out to be this superman, you seem to confirm this in the above comment - he is just a man after all! if he mastered the principles in his lifetime - why then do you feel you cant? From what i saw he isnt a superman.

I saw a video of an embu which had Tanaka Fumon doing a demonstration with his sword. I'm not going to go into details, because I'm not here to embarrass anyone, but it was not a pretty sight. Point is, people do make mistakes and everyone is not perfect, including your instructor.

I totally agree, everyone makes mistakes. But when people blatently make mistakes and then say 'the reason i did this was...', I find that a bit silly! He knows that people will swallow it so thats that.

The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good.

I have now seen the reason for this in the FAQ section. All is clear now. Thanks.

Having said that, the videos are funny in the sense that I can never play them for non-Bujinkan budoka and impress anyone. The reaction is always just as with the fellow above, "No way! They're doing it wrong! There's too many holes in their technique!"

Maybe the reason for this is that there are too many holes. Not saying that is the case, just maybe it is.

Similarly, you can never play a tape for a Bujinkan practitioner and them say ' ahhh yes i see the problem there' I can normally justify my reasons for why i think there are problems, in general Bujinkan people cannot explain why those holes/problems are there, this is the main reason i posted.

I just laugh at that point, and offer them another beer.

Probably the best spirit to take this sort of thing in, especially if you cant explain why the problems are there.

Your statements reveal the depth of your understanding.

what i ment by this statement is that all Koryu have a specific sylabus, When sempais or teachers teach a technique or demonstrate it for the camera they all tend to do the same thing - they use the same principles etc, but in this vid, One guy did the technique one way and then did the EXACT technique again it was different although it was the EXACT same technique - not a variation! Just wondered why this was the case! then another person came onto the screen and demonstrated the technique again and it was DIFFERENT AGAIN!!! I am not talking about body position or movement, i am talking fundimentals like, placement of grip, strike, blocking type, etc etc! it sound like this could be a variation but it was NOT!

Thanks for the responces. Was not expecting agreement just thought i would see if there where reasons.

cheers
Chris

[Kamiyama]

I feel everyone should have the chance to ask questions and make comments on a forum about the subject matter of the forum.

I believe someone should take the step up to the post an answer him without personal attacks on what he asked.

I believe personal attacks towards his post only support his cause.

kamiyama, ralph severe