Hapkido (Aikido), Hapkiyoosool (Aikijujutsu), & Daedong-ryu (Daito-ryu)

[Neil Yamamoto]

I won't be able to make the tournament, but I may stop by the demo that is taking place that evening if time allows.

Since you are on top of Queen Anne hill, My old hunting ground, and looking for a place to eat, try:

Coronitas, great Mexican-Caribbean influence food.

Hilltop Ale House has great brew and pub food

Queen Anne Cafe for lunch and a good big breakfast.

Orapin has some fantastic Thai offerings, in addition to a fast to go noodle outlet.

Chinoise has pan asian food that is pretty good.

5 Spot has great regional American cooking.

As for taking sarcasm, ask anyone who knows me and my background, or look up old threads, I can more than take it.

[Tom Douglas]

Just to clarify what Bernie Lau teaches: it's his own style of "aiki-jujutsu", developed from his long-term training in Aikikai aikido with his own ideas on tactics and techniques, based on his experience as a police officer. The information below comes from www.wuji.com:

"Bernie Lau

Lau started his training in 1955 in Hawaii and earned his shodan from Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba. His primary Aikido sensei was Shihan Yukiso Yamamoto and Sado Yoshioka, both students of Koichi Tohei and pillars of the Hawaii Aikikai. Lau sensei also studied on occasions with Tohei sensei, Doshu sensei (the founder's son), and attended classes by Osensei (the founder of Aikido).


With his work in Seattle's law enforcement community Lau sensei needed to research more options and techniques to use while faced with life and death situations encountered on the street. He pursued his studies of the martial arts in Goju Rye Karate and then putting his focus on Aikijujitsu. inviting guest instructors to his dojo such at: Frederick J. Lovret, Soke Don Angier, Wally Jay, and Obata author of Combat Aikijujitsu Lau sensei studied the many facets of Jujitsu and Aikijujitsu. After years of on-the-job research he formulated a system to teach law enforcement officers he named Icho Ryu Aikijujitsu.

Currently Lau sensei is enjoying retired, however he does occasionally travel to his associate clubs to give seminars for police and sheriffs departments.
Lau sensei has a series of Aikijujutsu instructions tapes:

Aikijujutsu Complete I
Aikijujutsu Complete II
Dynamic Aikijujitsu"


Tom Douglas

[Walker]

For those interested in Bernie Lau look for an in depth history/bio coming soon from Joe Svinth at EJMAS.com.
Also Bernie will be presenting a workshop Dec. 1 also organized by EJMAS.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

I've been doing a bit of surfing, and noticed that Mr. Hukchu posted the same statements over at aikido journal just prior to posting here:

hapkiyusul and Choi Yiong Sul in korea

In this thread at AJ, he posted an image of an alledged page of Takeda Sokaku's eimeiroku (enrollment book), as it had been reprinted in "Hiden Budo & Bujutsu Magazine", 6/2000.

It sounds like this image was included as part of an article in this issue of Hiden magazine, written by someone from the DR Seishinkai (SAD).

Unfortunately, the original document is very hard to read, as it was hand written, and the cleaned-up version provided underneath this image was cropped out of the scanned photo (which would have been VERY useful to see).

Here's what I can make out:

- the entry was made in Showa 3 (1928).

- the entry appears to say that the listed names participated in an eight day seminar.

- there is a Korean name on there, but I can't figure out what the translation would be.

- the training took place in Asahikawa, Hokkaido.

- the signature says "Takeda dai-sensei", which is a title Sokaku used, and may include a hanko at the bottom (very hard to see).

What little article text was included to the right of the image indicates that it was from Takeda Sokaku's enrollment book, which is a likely conclusion IF this photographed document is real.

Since Sokaku s. was illiterate and did not write his own documents, it is impossible to compare handwriting samples.'

I think everyone would agree that eight days of seminar training would not be sufficient to create a new art from, or, to teach Mr. Choi (founder of Hapkido) or anyone else anything comprehensive.

I suspect that Sokaku s. did not teach much (if any) aiki waza during open seminars, based off what has been written. Those who learned aiki from Sokaku s. were fairly long term direct students that trained with him either privately or in small groups regularly.

In other words, it would be interesting to find that a Korean was in fact a participant in one of Sokaku's seminars, but even if it were true - and that person had taught Mr. Choi or someone else - the material that was likely learned in this eight day seminar does not seem all that significant.

I'd be curious if Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei could confirm such an entry in the eimeiroku...

**

I also went to the "Hapkiyusul" home page listed in Mr. Hukchu's posts. I don't know what all is taught, but the kanji for "aikijujutsu" is included as one of three elements of the art, and the same aikijujutsu kanji is also written across the backs of the Hapkiyusul student uniforms.

I assume the literal translation of Hapkiyusul is "Aikijujutsu". I don't know what this name has to do with "'hapkiyusul' for name of Choi Yiong Sul's technique, because he likes old and origin style of Choi", since Mr. Choi taught what he called Korean Aikido.

I watched the MPEG movies, and didn't see anything that looked like aiki. There were some versions of jujutsu throws, and a few things that are difficult to describe - including a Shioda-type shoulder reverse, but nothing showing Daito ryu jujutsu or aikijujutsu.

Quite honestly, the more I read these threads, look at their web page and watch the videos, I'm beginning to suspect that Hapkiyusul is the new - I mean old - Aikijujutsu of Korea. The only thing missing is a lineage justifying the art's claim and name.

That reminds me, I've got to go check on the "Shimgumdo" (Shinkendo) web page. Hopefully they are still specializing on Zen sword, and not Obata sword.

Respectfully,

NATHAN : In this thread at AJ, he posted an image of an alledged page of Takeda Sokaku's eimeiroku (enrollment book), as it had been reprinted in "Hiden Budo & Bujutsu Magazine", 6/2000.
It sounds like this image was included as part of an article in this issue of Hiden magazine, written by someone from the DR Seishinkai (SAD).
==> On what ground do you suspect my comment? I am suprising at your dubious.
I said this thread that I'am personal researcher of GM choi and a history of hapkido.
The picture was from HIDDEN. the writer of the article and me worked together for searching a clue of Choi in EIMEIROKU and other sources.

the records(EIMEIROKU, enrollment) is now at Tokyo, Shinbu-kan and Abashiri, Seishin-kai (copy).

he visited Seishin-kai at Abashiri, and he did't find any information of GM choi.
but he found other koreans in the enrollment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NATHAN : Unfortunately, the original document is very hard to read, as it was hand written, and the cleaned-up version provided underneath this image was cropped out of the scanned photo (which would have been VERY useful to see).
==> this is new picture with more information.


this enrollment was written by training members, not by Sokaku.
according to this enrollment, Dakeda sokaku teached directly in the seminar.

£¨1928£®11.2-9£©5 korean + 2 japanese - at akitaya inn in Asahikawa.
£¨1928.12.10-17£©4 korean + 1 japanese - at akitaya inn in Asahikawa.
(1928.12.18-25£©4 korean - at akitaya inn in Asahikawa.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NATHAN : - the entry was made in Showa 3 (1928).
==> Right!

NATHAN : - the entry appears to say that the listed names participated in an eight day seminar.
==> it's not true. there was 3 times seminar. refer to upper picture.

NATHAN : - there is a Korean name on there, but I can't figure out what the translation would be.
==> you can see clean characters from new picture. till now, nobody have found a information for this korean in the enrollment in korea & japan. trying to pursue them will be a subject of additional research.

NATHAN : - the training took place in Asahikawa, Hokkaido.
==> Right!

NATHAN : - the signature says "Takeda dai-sensei", which is a title Sokaku used, and may include a hanko at the bottom (very hard to see).
==> Right! this enrollment was written by three people of the training member(japanese Sato Gacho and korean Jung Hiong Yok, and one another korea), not by Sokaku.

NATHAN : What little article text was included to the right of the image indicates that it was from Takeda Sokaku's enrollment book, which is a likely conclusion IF this photographed document is real.
==> it's true.

NATHAN : Since Sokaku s. was illiterate and did not write his own documents, it is impossible to compare handwriting samples.
I think everyone would agree that eight days of seminar training would not be sufficient to create a new art from, or, to teach Mr. Choi (founder of Hapkido) or anyone else anything comprehensive.
==> do not confusing about those.
this enrollment was not written by Sokaku who was illiterate but written by training participator.

NATHAN : I suspect that Sokaku s. did not teach much (if any) aiki waza during open seminars, based off what has been written. Those who learned aiki from Sokaku s. were fairly long term direct students that trained with him either privately or in small groups regularly.
==> I don't know what Sokaku taught at their seminar.
and I can't agree to your comment "OPEN SEMINAR".
only 4 ~ 5 people participated in one seminar (if open seminar was held, many people have taken part in) and despite of Sokaku having the principle of teaching that 'foreigner can't learn to Daitoryu', he taught korean student.
at that time(1927), Japan met finacial panic. because the cost of teaching was expensive(entrance was 2 ~ 3 yen), except rich person what anybody learned to datoryu was difficult. my japan friend give expression of a opinion "someone who be close to Sokaku maybe recommand them. it is one and only case of daitoryu seminar for foreigner at Sokaku enrollment"
Nathan's comment about Aiki teaching at that old seminar is only your thought. Nobody don't know and can't allude about his teaching at that seminar. in my thought, It maybe not open seminar but closed seminar.

NATHAN : it would be interesting to find that a Korean was in fact a participant in one of Sokaku's seminars, but even if it were true - and that person had taught Mr. Choi or someone else - the material that was likely learned in this eight day
seminar does not seem all that significant.
==> have ever I said "that person had taught Mr. Choi"? I Never said that.
at this time, I can't any connection clue between Korean participant in seminar and GM choi. instead I think GM choi recommended them to Sokaku for participate in the seminar.

NATHAN : I'd be curious if Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei could confirm such an entry in the eimeiroku...
==> Is the comment of Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei always right? I recommend that you try to confirm it by yourself.

NATHAN : I don't know what this name has to do with "'hapkiyusul' for name of Choi Yiong Sul's technique, because he likes old and origin style of Choi", since Mr. Choi taught what he called Korean Aikido.
==> you are perfectly wrong.
GM choi opened his first Dojang(traning center) at 1948.2.10, and then the name second Dojang(1952) was "HapkiyuKonsul".
and next, "hapkiyusul' was using by GM Choi until 1968, despite of GM Jihanjae using Hapkido by name from 1957. after 1968, GM Choi use 'Korea Hapkido'.(he never used the word "korean aikido", where do you hear or read this word? he dislike aikido)

NATHAN : I watched the MPEG movies, and didn't see anything that looked like aiki. There were some versions of jujutsu throws, and a few things that are difficult to describe - including a Shioda-type shoulder reverse, but nothing showing Daito ryu jujutsu or aikijujutsu.
==> I want to upload more MPG movies, but my teacher do not want to this.
he said "a man Seeing something can see despite of short viewing and will visit for confirmation"

NATHAN : Quite honestly, the more I read these threads, look at their web page and watch the videos, I'm beginning to suspect that Hapkiyusul is the new - I mean old - Aikijujutsu of Korea. The only thing missing is a lineage justifying the art's claim and name.
==> Quite honestly you are dubious.
Hapkiyusul is not new Aikijujutsu of Korea. the name "hapkiyusul", "hapkido", "aikijujitsu" is not important, being only representative of GM Choi's technique.
the important thing is that in korea a few direct students of GM choi are practicing everyday the origin GM Choi's technique with no adding new technique despite of many student having been adding new technique till now- more weapon skill and kicking skill.

Regards,
Hukchu

[Nathan Scott]

Thanks for your response. As you probably noticed, the image you attached did not make it through.

The additional translation is helpful though. Apparently what I had read as "eight day seminar" was referring to the three eight day seminars you listed in your last post. So to clarify, according to your translation there were 4-5 Korean's who participated in three-eight day seminars from November to December of 1928. Also, Sokaku apparently sent someone to America on his behalf at one point to offer instruction in response to a request by the presiding American president. It would be interesting to learn more about that.

You asked "On what ground do you suspect my comment?" regarding my observation of the scanned document. It is not that I suspect your document, it is simply that none of us know where the document came from or, for a fact, if it came from one of Takeda Sokaku's enrollment books. All we have is part of an article by someone from the Seishinkai, and your word that your believe it is real. That is assuring, and the document quite possibly is authentic, but until a credible independent third party can confirm it's authenticity it is more appropriate from where we're sitting to refer to the document as being "aledged". That is how research works - no offense intended.

Nathan's comment about Aiki teaching at that old seminar is only your thought. Nobody don't know and can't allude about his teaching at that seminar. in my thought, It maybe not open seminar but closed seminar.

My comment is DEFINITELY my own opinion, which I made fairly clear when I made it. The seminars may have in fact been "closed" as opposed to "open", but I don't think this is really the point.

The point I was trying to make about the seminar subject is that, the only students that learned the deeper levels of DR aiki are the ones that trained directly under Sokaku s. for extended lengths of time, not through short seminars. These students would have logically been considered more serious, and more trustworthy through the continued regular exposure to each other.

Ueshiba s., Horikawa s. and Sagawa s. for example all trained formally under Sokaku s. directly in a dojo. It is not a coincidence that they are also the ones that have the strongest reputations for having learned the higher levels of DR aiki.

My suspician as to what might have been taught during seminars is also based off of the many interviews, books, articles and discussions I've read/participated in, including this one:

"Daito ryu Aikijujutsu: Hiden Mokuroku - Ikkajo", by Kondo Katsuyuki; Aiki News 2000 pg.11:

"Regarding the aforementioned 'secretiveness' inherent in Daito-ryu, it is said that Sokaku Takeda never taught the same technique twice."

"When I [Kondo Katsuyuki] myself was learning from Tokimune [Takeda], he often warned me, 'if you teach the same technique twice, the second time your students will figure out how to reverse it and defeat you with it. For that reason, teach something different the second time.'"

"He [Tokimune] also explained by saying, 'if you teach people true techniques and the next day they leave th school, then all of the secret and oral teachings of Daito-ryu will flow outside of the school and be known to the general public'. He also said, 'out of a thousand pupils, teach the true techniques only to one or two. Make absolutely sure of those you choose, and to them alone teach what is real. There is no need to teach the rest'."

I believe the above quotes convey a pretty good idea what might have been taught - jujutsu. Since aiki is pretty much the "secret" aspect of DR, it pretty much narrows down the scope of instruction to jujutsu techniques, though Sokaku very well may have demonstrated some aiki techniques.

Sokaku and Tokimune's concern about the secrets (aiki primarily) of DR flowing outside the art to others seems to have been a valid concern.

Of course we don't know for a fact what was taught in this case, but I thought I would offer a bit of perspective for others to consider anyway.

I can't any connection clue between Korean participant in seminar and GM choi. instead I think GM choi recommended them to Sokaku for participate in the seminar.

You say in the first sentance that you do not have any clues to connect Mr. Choi to the seminar participants, but then in the second sentance say that you think Mr. Choi sent them to study. These two sentances contradict themselves. What evidence did you find to make such a guess? Why wouldn't Mr. Choi just go himself, if he was living in Hokkaido - especially if it was supposedly important enough to base his art of off?

Is the comment of Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei always right? I recommend that you try to confirm it by yourself.

Yeah, pretty much. My experience has been that Mr. Pranin and Kondo sensei are the most credible sources of Daito ryu research I've found anywhere - in English or Japanese - and have yet to discover evidence that either of them have mis-spoken or published flawed research to date.

However, I do and will continue to confirm such research myself as opportunity presents itself, but in the meantime their work is a great foundation to work from.

you are perfectly wrong. (snip)

he never used the word "korean aikido", where do you hear or read this word? he dislike aikido

How could I be perfectly wrong??

Mr. Choi may not have specifically translated his art as "Korean Aikido", but Hapkido translates directly in Japanese as Aikido, and it is a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art. These are facts, and you can see the kanji for "Aikido" on many Hapkido Dojang everywhere - in America at least. Instructors of Hapkido often say that it is "similar to aikido, but with kicks and punches".

If he didn't like aikido, why did he change the name of his art to "hapkido"? Names do matter when referring to an art, and those that found new arts tend to put quite a bit of thought into the name they choose. Hapkido may look different than aikido, but that does not change the fact that the hapkido translates as (Korean) aikido.

I want to upload more MPG movies, but my teacher do not want to this. He said "a man Seeing something can see despite of short viewing and will visit for confirmation"

That is a convenient way out.

I guess I just can't "see it". Too bad for me. I'm sure its an enjoyable art to study regardless of any relation or lack there of to DR or aikido.

Quite honestly you are dubious.

I am?

du·bi·ous


1 : giving rise to uncertainty: as
a : of doubtful promise or outcome <a dubious plan>
b : questionable or suspect as to true nature or quality <the practice is of dubious legality> <the dubious honor of being the world's biggest polluter>

Thanks for letting me know. I'll work on being less dubious.

Hapkiyusul is not new Aikijujutsu of Korea. the name "hapkiyusul", "hapkido", "aikijujitsu" is not important, being only representative of GM Choi's technique.

Hapkiyusul IS the (relatively) new aikijujusu of Korea by definition. It could be that arts such as this are represented differently in Korea - I wouldn't know as I haven't had the chance to go there yet. But outside of Korea arts such as Tae Kwon Do used to be advertised as "Korean Karate", back when Karate was the popular thing to study.

Right now aikijujutsu is one of the more popular arts to study, as I'm sure you must realize. So when one more person posts unsubstantiated claims and opinions without anything solid to back them up, it starts to sound alot like marketing and propaganda.

It's not that any of us have anything against arts like Hapkiyusul, it is just that it is difficult to have an intelligent discussion about subjects like lineage and history without having more solid evidence to back up such claims.

Some of the more reputable arts I know that also have unfounded historical claims that are passed down in their art have chosen to not aggressively advertise them, since they have not found adequate evidence yet to support the claims. This might be a good way to go while your continuing your research and collecting new evidence.

BTW, issues like physical technique and effectiveness have little to nothing to do with the issues of lineage and/or other historical matters. That is a different discussion altogether.

Hope we understand each other a little better,

Nathan : until a credible independent third party can confirm it's authenticity it is more appropriate from where we're sitting to refer to the document as being "aledged". That is how research works - no offense intended.
==>
I respect your a scholarly attitude. but Martial art have a limit about 'proof' in spect of history and technique.
it is not scholarship. it's only martial art. nobody prove a martial art by document.
any document maybe falsified. we can easily find old document fabricator in a faked antique business.
please do not have a tenacity of purpose about document.
if we can't find perpect proof of something, we can try to find evidence, testimony.
it'll be helpful for stepping up to a historical fact.
you alway said that a testimony of korean and others was not able to help anything about GM choi's history.
in your scholarly limit, you can't find anything about GM choi, Hapkido, Hapkiyusul....,

Nathan : I believe the above quotes convey a pretty good idea what might have been taught - jujutsu. Since aiki is pretty much the "secret" aspect of DR, it pretty much narrows down the scope of instruction to jujutsu techniques, though Sokaku very well may have demonstrated some aiki techniques.
Sokaku and Tokimune's concern about the secrets (aiki primarily) of DR flowing outside the art to others seems to have been a valid concern.
==> I knew that Aiki is the "secret" aspect of DR, it is impossible to immitation. it takes long time for mastering.
who did't know that? who did't read that book? the DR book you said is very commonplace in DR books.
the book you said is verbal interviews with old DR teacher, too. it's verbal, which is your dislike.

logically I want to agree with your comment, 'korean of old seminar may not study Aiki'.
But according to your scholarly attitude, we can't find any document of Sokaku teaching a technique at that seminar.
I can't find any document of your comment 'korean of old seminar may not study Aiki'.
it's limit of documetation.

I think we must listen carefully to many aspect which is document, verbal evidence, witness, family lineage, a similarity of technique and so on..., for approaching a fact.


Nathan : You say in the first sentance that you do not have any clues to connect Mr. Choi to the seminar participants, but then in the second sentance say that you think Mr. Choi sent them to study. These two sentances contradict themselves.
==> I have never found any proof, testimony, evidence about connection between GM choi and other korean in seminar.
it'll be research part of Future.
saying that Mr. Choi sent them to Sokaku is only my hypothesis as if you think 'korean of old seminar may not study Aiki'.

What evidence did you find to make such a guess? Why wouldn't Mr. Choi just go himself, if he was living in Hokkaido - especially if it was supposedly important enough to base his art of off?
==> according to GM choi's testimony I found in korea and others, He met Sokaku at 1913, visited hokkaido with sokaku, have ever met morihei at 1915. GM choi said he alway was in attendance upon Sokaku like father during 30 years (1913? ~ 1943).
at that time(1928), his position in DR maybe not a seminar student for having to describing his name in enrollment and GM choi was illiteracy like Sokaku


Nathan : Mr. Choi may not have specifically translated his art as "Korean Aikido", but Hapkido translates directly in Japanese as Aikido, and it is a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art. These are facts, and you can see the kanji for "Aikido" on many Hapkido Dojang everywhere - in America at least. Instructors of Hapkido often say that it is "similar to aikido, but with kicks and punches".
==>
before upploding my message in BB, I studied and practiced Daitoryu, Aikido, Hapkido. firstly, you must study about Hapkido. How many do you know about hapkido? have you ever learned that? How long? do you know about hapkido's history?

example, 'KI(japan)', 'chi(chinese)', 'Gi(korean)' is same chinese character.

Hapkido is different from Aikido. at now, it is not a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art.
if you think that Hapkido is a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art, where is from in japan martial art?
in korea, Hapkido and Aikido is perfectly different. Aikido federation is there separately.
< 3 major hapkido federation in korea>
1. KHF - korea hapkido federation => jijutsu style + kicking + falling down
2. IAF - International Aikido federation => aikido style + kicking + falling down
3. Kidohwoi(kooksul) => traditional martial art + jijutsu style + kicking + falling down
some other pure aikido dojo...(shorin branch...,)

Hapkido federation found that aikido use same character for naming at 1968. at that time, Kido(gido) federation started with a new name.

Nathan : If he didn't like aikido, why did he change the name of his art to "hapkido"? Names do matter when referring to an art, and those that found new arts tend to put quite a bit of thought into the name they choose. Hapkido may look different than aikido, but that does not change the fact that the hapkido translates as (Korean) aikido.
==> the reason why he did't change the name of his art to "hapkido" was that he said only "it's wayara" for his life.
he did not concern about NAME of his skill, alway interesting in teaching it. GM JiHanJae use firstly the name of 'hapkido' at 1957.4. GM choi's other student use the name of 'hapkido' from 1968 because of Hapkido's popular appeal.
nobody might think that a foreigner said 'two martial art are related because of same chinese character of name'.
for example, 'Sumo' in japan translates as 'sangbak' in korea. and Is 'sumo' variant on a korea martial art?
Hapkido and Aikido use same chinese characters(it's not japan character!).
about this chinese characters, korea translates Hapkido, Japan translate Akido.
they are different martial art.

Nathan : Hapkiyusul IS the (relatively) new aikijujusu of Korea by definition. It could be that arts such as this are represented differently in Korea - I wouldn't know as I haven't had the chance to go there yet. But outside of Korea arts such as Tae Kwon Do used to be advertised as "Korean Karate", back when Karate was the popular thing to study.
Right now aikijujutsu is one of the more popular arts to study, as I'm sure you must realize. So when one more person posts unsubstantiated claims and opinions without anything solid to back them up, it starts to sound alot like marketing and propaganda.
==> Hapkiyusul is not new aikijujitsu.
the name of 'hapkiyusul' was using at 1954? ~ 1968.
the name of 'hapkido' is using from 1957 to till now.(poplular)
GM Kim yun Sang is of use 'hapkiyusul' from 1974 to till now for honor of Choi's old technique although GM choi use the name of hapkido about his technique from 1968.

today hapkido show many joint lock, kicking and falling down.
But GM Choi's original technique is different from today hapkido.
In korea, hapkiyusul(tranlated aikijujutsu in japanese) is not popular arts. only two dojo exist and a few people practice it in kumsan and taejon where is not big city.
my effort is not for marketing. I want to annouce GM choi and his technique.
In internet, I found GM choi was described at nomal martial art man or only small old people. it's not true.
GM choi had many milacle techniques with Aiki. because of his death, I can't introduce his skill openly.
instead of him, GM Kim yun Sang show GM choi's original technique.

I'm a network security expert, do not say about me 'marketing for martial art'or 'advertizing of...'.
through me, I believe many martial artist in BB found a new clue about GM choi, DR history or some information about hapkido.
I expect your report for yourself not by other book's story.

Nathan : BTW, issues like physical technique and effectiveness have little to nothing to do with the issues of lineage and/or other historical matters. That is a different discussion altogether.
==> it is the difference of you and me.^^
in my thought, martial art expert who have experienced a physical technique and effectiveness can help for this BB in spite of being not perpect proof.
But, I respect your view point of persuiting complete.

I Hope we understand each other a little better, too.

I'm sorry for bad writing. nobody use english at my place. (do you know korean language? please understand my bad english writing. ^^)

thank for reading

Hukchu

The term Hapkido is how most people recognize what Choi, Yong Sool taught even though the full name of Choi, Yong Sool's art was and still is
Dai Dong Ryu Hapki Yu Sool
Translated = Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. It is only my opinion but maybe what Choi taught was closer to what Sokaku Takeda taught. It is possible even if this does not meet with majority preferance and even written proof.

Just some things to think about.

Todd

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Hukchu,

I'm afraid we could talk in circles like this forever. I could write another long post defending what I was trying to say in the previous ones, but I don't think it would help. Your responses are emotional and defensive, and we are do seem to be understanding the points the other is making.

I posted to this thread again in hopes of clarifying what the information on the Hiden magazine image said - and should have just left it at that.

According to the first hand accounts of students and the extensive records (shareiroku and emeiroku) kept by Sokaku, we can safely assume that Mr. Choi did not receive a "teaching" license or other form of permission from Sokaku, and as such, it is inappropriate for him or his successors to use the Daito ryu name - though there is nothing keeping them from claiming they teach aikijujutsu, since this is a broad term that nobody owns.

There are other groups that make simliar claims as Hapkido - such as the "Saigo-ha" group. They also do not have any supporting documents and lack significant technical similarities.

Isn't there any film or photos of Mr. Choi performing his Daito ryu aikijujutsu? Considering Mr. Choi's age, I would think there would be alot of photos, and some amount of film documenting his art.

Regards,

[Arman]

Nathan,

I would suggest just letting it go. If you follow Hukchu and Todd's posts, they do not offer anything but conjecture and unsubstantiated claims. If you try and rebut their claims with the known evidence (enrollment records, multiple source verification, etc), they merely discount the evidence as just as unsubstantiated as their own (or lack thereof).

This is a common method of argument by those with no evidence to support an argument. Attack the evidence of your opponents as just as groundless, leaving everything open to speculation and opinion. It is nothing other than a reductio ad absurdum, leaving everything relative.

How hard is it to claim your opponent's argument is based on forgery and lies, or impossible to prove? It is very easy! It doesn't matter if the claim is true or not. The point is to avoid the evidence, discount the evidence, deny the strength of the evidence, so that one never has to answer the evidence. Thus, an opinion without any evidence becomes just as valuable as an opinion with evidence. It is what Plato would have called, sophistry.

Don't be surprised if there is a reply to my post once again making the exact same type of arguments I just described.

I would suggest you would have a more productive time banging your head against a brick wall.


Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

[Brently Keen]

"It is only my opinion, but maybe what Choi taught was closer to what Sokaku Takeda taught. It is possible even if this does not meet with majority preferance and even written proof."

You're certainly entitled to your opinion Todd, but what is it based on? Imagination or wishful thinking?

You're making some really huge assumptions based on misinformation, tenuous "maybe's" and very unlikely and remote possibilities. That's just to say that Choi studied for any length of time with Takeda, but now your opinion goes even further to say (against all available evidence) that what Choi taught was closer to what Sokaku Takeda taught? Closer than what or who? How can you even presume to know what Sokaku Takeda taught, much less compare it to what Choi taught, isn't that just a bit presumptuous?

"Just some things to think about."

This is really a no-brainer folks. It's not a question of what is the majority or minority preference, nor is it a question of what might have been possible, rather it is about the accuracy and truth of the technical and historical claims that are being put forth. Written proof (documentary evidence) is only a part of the whole picture, but in the case of Daito-ryu the written records are rather extensive and complete. Choi's name or supposed name are conspicuously absent. The burden of proof is upon the successors of Choi and their students.

To Hukchu's credit at least he's attempting to do some research into the matter. Further research may yet reveal more information about the truth of Choi's influences, particularly if it is conducted with journalistic integrity and according to established standards. To start, information received needs to be checked and cross-checked, sources ought to be confirmed for credibility and rated for their reliability.

With all due respect, at this point in time, there's still not any compelling evidence to support either Choi's stories, his students claims, or Todd's opinion. And in light of what we do know, those stories, claims, and opinions are misrepresenting themselves. So at this point, the sources for those have yet to gain any credibility with the rest of us.

Brently Keen

I do not consider DaitoRyu or its practioners my opponents. It is a great Mudo, in fact one of the best in my opinion. The only thing we are trying to say is that what Choi taught was real Aiki/Hapki. There are a few that still teach what Choi taught today. It seems you guys would rather argue about documents and liniage than what is similar between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. I just like the training and philosophy of what original Hapkido is about and personally could care less where it came from. I will close in saying again, It did not bennifit Choi to claim he had Mastered Daito Ryu or that Takeda Sokaku was like a father to him but this is what Choi claimed. Choi was an old time Martial Artist, he did not care about marketing. He just loved what he did and called it Dai Dong Ryu Hapki Yu Sool/ Hapkido.

Todd Miller

[kimjohan]

Todd, I'm sure we all understand what you're trying to say, but the point is as Mr. Keen stated:

You're making some really huge assumptions based on misinformation, tenuous "maybe's" and very unlikely and remote possibilities.

You claim that:

what Choi taught was real Aiki/Hapki.

So, that is your opinion, but if you want to make such a claim publicly you should support it with prove, and not just heresay.

All recognized Daito-ryu teachers, eg. Kondo sensei etc., have abolutely no problem supporting their claims with proves.
Why is it so difficult for you to bring forward prove to support your claims?
Well we can speculate about that, but the fact is that you have not described any proof to us at all.
Therefore you should refrain from making such claims publicly. That's common sense

- Kim Johansen.

If I asked the question Proove to me that you practice real Aiki, how would you answer in writing? My skills are better shown on the training hall floor. My teacher has always said there are those that talk and those that do. As I said before GM Lim, Hyun Soo will be coming over for a few seminars next year. If any of you are interested in the true Hapkido you will be welcome to join us and you might be surprized at what you find!!!!

In peace
Todd Miller

[kimjohan]

Todd, you wrote:

If I asked the question Proove to me that you practice real Aiki, how would you answer in writing?

I would describe my linage to you (who my teacher was etc.), show you scans of my licences, scans of pictures and electronic videoclips that would show you excactly what I was talking about.

you wrote:

My teacher has always said there are those that talk and those that do.

I agree with your teacher.

Enjoy your seminar

- Kim Johansen.