Got Ki?

In my 25 years of study in Karate I have heard and read much about Ki (like we all have) but never once has any teacher, seminar, book, video, or any other source "really" explained or teach any technique on how to find it, let alone use it.

My theory is that this is one of those things that is handed down and most teacher talk about it's importance but rarely ever really know what it is.

Ever since I began studying Chen Style taiji I have been exposed to many teachers, explanations, a plethora of theories, dozens of exercises ohow to first find out what Ki is, how to recognize it, then how to generate it, then how to utilize at will. The CHinese interanl arts (and some external) deal with the subject of Ki very matter of factly with no mumbo-jumbo, you're not ready to learn that, no mistery. I still practice and teach Karate and hI am beginning to fill the vid inmy practic and find out how Ki can fit into karate kata. But I would have never learned of it's meaning and understanding unless I had gone outside the karate world.

This knowledge has changed my karate from being a completely external art, to one that is flourishing internally. If you feel that your karate is becoming like an "old worn shoe" I would recomend to study and research Ki via an internal art.

I am wondering if any of you have had any similar experiences, and/or your thougths.

Thanks.

So is there anyway you can elaborate or perhaps describe what chi/ki is in a tangible logic? Thank you.

That is a tought thing to answer in a forum like this without a huge multi page essay. But let me condense it as best as I can:

Martial Ki (or Qi in Chinese) is based on utilizing one's internal force. This is already a common explanation in hundreds of volumes which I have read over the years in many karate related publications, magazines, etc... but nowhere has it ever to my knowledge been explained how to achieve this. It is a concept often quoted and refered to with little to no scientific and practical guidelines. But I am going to try......

1)
Looking at internal Chinese systems and Aikido which is the one of the most widely know (non Chinese) arts to display the usage of Ki, one can find a common thread, and this is the first thing one must achieve in order to even begin to attempt to find Ki- RELAXATION!

Without it one is stuck in the external power realm, and will utilize muscle tissue and muscular tension to exert outer force. This being the case then only those of superior physical strenght will most likely win a fight (given the 2 opponents have equal martial skills) this is not the vision of what superior martial skill is about, otherwise only the young and powerfull will prevail. The old masters who lose external physical strengh offset this loss by the lifelong buildup of the skill to 1) recognize KI, 2) know how to gather it, 3) know how to utilize at will through the body and focus it to a weapon (i.e fist, foot, hand, shoulder etc...).

Being external is not a bad thing necessarily and it is a natural progression like in life you are young and (dumb) and then you grow older and you are supposed to mature. Same thing with external power, then you are supposed to migrate to using internal power as you mature and you get older. But this does not happen automatically, and some Senseis have said that if you practice your kata 100,000 (for example) you will magically have the Tinker-karate-bell drop magic Ki dust on you and you will graduate to that level. Funny as this may sound, I have heard stories similar to this (except without the tinker bell park), but just as ridiculous.

If practice of external forms would do it, we would all have Ki after we hit the magic number right? Aint't gonna happen.

In order to find Ki, one needs to know know to properly relax the body so that it is in the middle range from too stiff to too floppy without any substance. This is why many old masters look very relaxed doing their forms so they look like they have no outwardly visible power (very misleading) to the onlooker, but watch out!

Under the state of relaxation one needs to know certain techniques to recognize Ki and know how to buld it up. In internal systems the basics of this is the "standing pole" exercise which looks very silly but it is very important and the foundation of Ki buildup. Once you recognize your Ki, then you need to know how to move your body in concentric, independant circles, inside outside, smooth flowing, with no interruptions.

This is very difficult to do and this is why so much has been written lately about how Modern karate kata with "it's stop-and-go" movement and tempo, and the "freezing on Kime" with the body all "tense" to show how physically strong one is is not condusive toward proper martial power.

Let's face it if you are as stiff as a board, you are surely going to get defeated by anyone who is relaxed, and you will do most of the defeating yourself.

2) Breathing is all important, and there are2 specific ways to breathe 1 of which relate to martial arts and is not commonly practiced today. One is the normal breathing where the belly expands upon inhaling, and contracts upon exhaling. The other is reverse breathing with is the opposite. This is what is commonly used when the practitioner wishes to apply internal force in an outburst of energy.

3)
There are specific exercises called "silk reeling" that some (not all) internal arts use to teach one how to develop Ki recognition and generation, without this, it is virtually nearly impossible to achieve.

4)
Then one has to train the mind to coordinate with this relaxation in a "total body integration" using a concept very common to chinese internal arts called "mind intent" which is sort of like "focusing", that is the best way I can explain it in a karate sort of way.

4) When you put it all together it works like this:

a- the mind is the chief. The mind commands and creates "intent".
b- Intent pushes the Ki towards the "intended body part" which will be the weapon used.
c- The Ki is converted to force/power upon contact with the opponent.

This is a very simplistic readers digest version of a very complex system of study which takes years upon years of study but it is very common in chinese arts, but it is very rare to find external karate-ka who have a true "command and control" of it. I have been very fortunate to have found and trained with 3 individuals who have different levels of this skill in different ways, one is Sensei TIm Rodgers (Shorinjiryu), another is Sensei Toshihiro Oshiro (Shorinryu and Yamanni ryu), and the third is Sifu Qichen Guo (Chen Style Taiji quan).

I do not make claims that I master this, but I do claim that I am legitimately studying it under a Taiji Master in Los Angeles and I have at the very least a mental understanding and a good working picture of the "thing" as a blueprint to follow. And this is very important because without this "blueprint" how can one build a foundation towards a bigger goal.

I grew up a Karate ka, I have hundreds of books and videos and I have researched quite a bit. My stint as the editor of Bugeisha magazine opened so many doors and gave me access to many Masters and the priviledge to make contact with many things that I would never have access to. But with all this, there are no readily available resources which I have ever found to even touch base on what I wrote about on the subject of "KI" above.

The irony of it all, is that all this well documented and available readily by chinese internal teachers in tons of books and publications. Something definately got lost in the migration of Karate from Okinawa to japan and the rest of the world. I think we will sadly never really know how much or how little this aspect of Karate was part of the "closed" sessions in the days of Sakugawa, Matsumura, to the pre WWII masters. So much was lost in the Battle of Okinawa in terms of people, documentation, books etc... But all is not Lost for it all came from China originally, and China is still alive and vibrant with masters who are passing the torch. It is all there all you have to do is find the time and do the work.

Although I am studying Chen Taiji and feel like a new beginner (which is a great feeling to do all over again!) studying something that is so rich in culture and content, with much more complexity and detail than the external karate I first learned; I find that this internal knowledge is allowing me to redefine and elevate my karate to a new level that would have been impossible for me to reach if I just continued doing the same old thing I was doing. I hit a plateau and was stuck. And I know that many of my karate peers feel the same way and that this is a wall that all external artists (of any style and or culture) will inevitably hit one day where there is nowhere else to go, and you find yourself asking the BIG question-
"is there anything more to this"?

I am happy to say that YES there is plenty more, but one has to have an open mind, empty the cup, and put away all rank and ego in the closet. There are some good resources I can recomned that are very detailed (not an easy read at first) but excellent:
Chen Style: The Source of Taijiquan by Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, David Gaffney (find it at Amazon),

also many works of Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming at his website
<http://www.ymaa.com/>

Hope this helped (my fingers are tired).
Sayonara

nincho.

Great to see another Chen TJQ person on here.
I really liked your last post, very well written.

BTW, there have been recently a few heated debates about the existence of Qi on some forums here.
So you might not get much feedback here.

Cheers.

P.S.: Am I correct in assuming that you are studying "Large Frame" style or is it "New Frame".
Myself I am studying "Small Frame".

Thank you so much, this helps quite a bit to my understanding. As you said, most chinese internal art focuses on KIs as well as Aikido. But does Aikido truly capture or instill the same essence ingrained? Many practitioners will tell you that sometimes Aikido is a bit complicated, or not too effective when you are against ferocious opponent(s), which would require combats prowess of a hard style. And some will argue that they dont much focus on KIs, just meditation and dojo etiquettes. But most for the part love Aikido. But my question is, does it really focus on KI like Tai Chi? Just curious. Intense explanation. Practicing Karate, did you even feel that you could not defend yourself from opponent who was bigger than your or far superior in strength and speed but does not hold same karate skill as you? Thank you.

[CEB]

Mr. Lemus will be very well recieved by some of us here. I became interested in Taijiquan when I saw a Yang Style form and realized how some of the postures were simliar to postures from Shisochin. I've practice with a local teacher who I believe has helped my Goju Ryu quite a bit. In Goju Ryu we do hard and soft forms of Kakie. We try to develop a lot of the same basic things but go about it in different manner. Silk reeling and push hands have helped my kakie. The sensitivity required for the Taiji exercises have helped develop my sense of muchimi, I think.


My instructor really likes ChiGong. He always closes class with this one Chi Gong. I can't tell you what chi is but I always feel better after a Taijiquan workout. I can't always say that about our Goju workouts, as I limp home from the dojo

I dabble in Taiji, Victor here has practiced Taiji for a long time. Kusanku is also has a taiji background I believe. Its all good here in the karate forum. The members lounge gets a little crazy though, a lot mean spirited people hang out there. Not as warm and loving as the Karate forum.

Glad to have you 2 guys here.

[Goju Man]

I think I'm pleading the fifth.

Johnny, he beat you out.

This may add onto redundancy of my nature, lol. But here is a topic being discussed here relevant to what Mr. Lemus was saying, when people get old, they have to rely on their internal power or soft art.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=21280

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...php?forumid=12

But is chi really applicable to self defense? I mean when you are doing some kinda taisabaki and evasive maneuvers, avoiding the attack and applying some kinda restraint on the attacker, things you'd see in Aikido, tuite aspect of Karate, Chin-Na, and Tai chi, aren't you pretty much applying well memorized techniques taken from your mind in synched with your muscle memory, and hence adapting to whatever the attack might be by using these principles behind the techniques? Either way, the fundamental is getting your opponent(s) down to the ground by redirecting their "energy" or attack. Of course it would be foolish if an opponent intends to drive knife to your kidney while you set yourself up for a reverse punch to his spleen. Now that's a game of chicken, who's gonna land the blow first? Hehe. So joint locks and throws would be the best in such situation, not atemis, and this would work well for any individual, despite power or age, well as far as I think from Judo. Of course I only mean it in a definite relatiivity, you really wouldn't expect a 10 year old to win nor a frail 70 year old man with little MA skills over the years to do the same. Thank you.

Does it , perhaps, depend on the martial skills of the Taiji practitoner? We had an Ikkyu at the Shotokan Dojo I trained at in Baltimore who taught Taijiquan at a rec centre,and her Taiji was definately a martial art!
On the other hand, I took Taijiquan many years ago at the U. of Wyoming (yes, tehre is a university in Wyoming!) as a PE class, and it was as far from martial arts as one could get. It was "soft and cuddly" , definitely not Budo. the instructor emphasized that it was for "health, and ahd studied for about a year before he began to teach.

Akshel.

Qi is in everything you do in TJQ may it be offensive or defensive, often the same move but differently applied.

Too many people, IMHO, confuse qi with jing.

TJQ can be practiced for either health or martial application, but you will not get the full health benefit unless you train for the martial side this includes weapons, push-hands, Silk reeling, Zhang Zhuang, etc.

Cheers.

It is very difficult to define ki...try to define spirit...??? I'm not even sure that a definition is that helpful. Remember the story about the baby fish that asked its mama, "What is a fish?" The mama fish just swam all through the water effortlessly, jumped, darted, flipped, and just did all kinds of fishy things. The baby fish said,"oh." And that was it. It may be easier to come at ki through an understanding of shibumi (shibui), most often defined as "effortless perfection", or "effortless power." Every accomplished artist has "ki"....concert pianists, painters, sculptors, dancers, writers Greg Maddux, Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Joe DiMaggio. But just try to define what it is.... It has a lot to do with spirit and focus, and years and years of practice. Know what? I bet none of the above mentioned spent much time trying to define what it was they "had." Gene

Ya, it's a very ambiguous term isn't it? lol. I mean internal art works on your muscle and energy. But so does external art, it will work on your flexibility, give muscle mass, and hence feeling good and feeling fit, and doing 1000 jumping jacks if you feel like it, if leads to reconciliation would mean you're harnessing your ki right? At least from one aspect? So it's not necessarily so that the external art becomes obsolete when challenging an internal one in a challenge or bout? If you're talking about internal art culitivating your spirit, well, even an external art should do the same, refine a person's character and judgement, but depending on the teacher though.

Millia, I think you are artificially separating the internal and the external arts. Each is both. I think you are getting tangled up in the words. Ki is not something you come at intellectually. You just have to let it happen. Gene

Akshel.

In CMA ALL the styles includes some forms of Qi-Gong (Ki-Ko?? in japanese).

If I remember correctly San-Chien form is designed to develop internal principles.
As are some 2-man exercises and drills.

Most of the external arts don't lay the emphasis on internal skill till you reach quiet a high level in the Art.

As a rough (disliked) guideline see it as follows:
External MA = external --> internal
Internal Ma = internal --> external.

or

External MA = enhance your current capabilities.
Internal MA = Change your current habits and attributes and than enhance them.

Either way they are simply different roads to the top of the same mountain, at the top there should no longer be a style but pure skill.

Cheers.