Saigo-ha "Daito-ryu"/ Shodokai (Sogawa Kazuoki)

[RobNyc]

Yea, Saigo-ha is fishy.

[Nathan Scott]

Interesting, thanks Rich.

The kind of obi I'm used to seeing with, gendai gusoku at least, is a thick cotton obi (sarashi perhaps) wrapped several times around the waist. This is wrapped in a different fashion that the shigoki sometimes seen worn without armor, and is much more substantial for actually wearing daisho/weapons. Here is a a picture of what I'm talking about (Obata Sensei):

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Here is some info that poped up on a net search (though shigoki may be a bit of a generic term for this type of soft obi):

This wedding set also comes with a "shigoki". The shigoki is a cloth (similar to an obi) worn around the waist. It's 11 feet and 8 inches long by 12 inches wide.

Photo from web page:

http://www.moto-ya.net/pics/317e.jpg

I couldn't find any photos on the net of a man wearing one, but here is a photo of Angier Sensei taken at a seminar in 2000 wearing a shigoki, for those that do not know what we're talking about (w/ Toby relaxing on his shoulder blades):

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I reckon I could just ask Obata Sensei too, huh? I'll let you know if I remember to ask him and if he gives me an answer.

BTW, if you think about it, email me your phone number please. I've got someone that contacted me that I'd like to ask you about.

Regards,

[Richard Elias]

Yes they are worn differently without armor because, well, they don't have armor on. But my understanding is it's not that much different. But, I could always be wrong.

The shigoki also is used in a number of different activities, not always associated with martial arts. Some forms of festival and dance dress/costume as well as some forms of taiko also use them.

Incidentally, Don is not wearing a shigoki in that picture, those are just white straps on his hakama. The shigoki is usually worn very low on the hips.

As an aside, the word shigoki can also mean hard or severe training, with different characters of course.


Here’s a picture of some kenbu practitioners wearing shigoki. As you can see they wear them rather low, below the knot of the hakama.

[Nathan Scott]

Thanks for the correction and photo Richard. I hadn't looked very closely at Angier Sensei's hakama himo, and am not familiar with the wearing of shigoki in general.

Interesting concept.

[O'Neill]

Here are some sites in Japan from the Aikijujutsu shodokai. I wish that I read Japanese as i want to read some of the captions by their historical photos. Can anyone gather a date of birth for Sogawa?

http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~saigouha/
httplaza18.mbn.or.jp/~daitouryu/
http:www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/_saigouha/

There are other sites devoted to this. On one there are supposed pictures from their history. They have some nice pics.

[O'Neill]

There is another Aikijujutsu Shodokai site. There is another one that is very extensive but i must find the url for it. By the way Del Cueto sensei of the Rengokai is very close to this group, they are friends.

[Nathan Scott]

Erin,

Your last two url's are messed up. You might try copying and pasting them to avoid making mistakes. Here is the second one - don't know what the third one was:

http://plaza18.mbn.or.jp/~daitouryu/

I looked at this page and related pages, and found that all of them were basically advertisements for their products. Links to products talked about what kind of information you would find in them.

Those curious about the Saigo-ha should have a look at this page:

http://plaza18.mbn.or.jp/~daitouryu/page/syuppan.htm

It shows all the stuff they publish. It is really amazing that this group still lands publishing deals, but I guess this is a reflection of their sales. Bad for Daito ryu, good for them.

BTW, Mr. Sogawa is famous for his interesting looking diagrams and renderings. I've translated some of them before in the past, and found that they are presented more as eye candy to sell the books than as a supplement to any high-reaching principles being discussed in the text. In other words, from what I've translated I've found that the pretty black and white renderings are not supported much by text explaining why they are there.

A clue to consumers - don't by books because of eye catching renderings and dynamic looking photos. Find out who the author is, and what makes them qualified to publish something on the given subject. Don't waste your money on Saigo-ha publications.

The best Saigo-ha page though, as everyone knows, is that of Dr. John J. Williams. Have a look at that one!

Also, we already have a thread for the Shodokai/Sogawa, as well as a Rengokai thread (no surprise that they are friendly). I'd like to merge this with that one if you don't mind.

Regards,

[MarieB]

i like the pictures

[Nathan Scott]

A friend of mine just lent me a 5 tape series produced by Sogawa Kazuoki called "Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu A to Z", published by BAB. I'm not sure what year they were produced, by they look kind of old. Each tape is about 30 minutes long.

My analysis of the techniques previously in this thread were based on the various books Sogawa has published, but until now, I had not seen him move before. I know this is no suprise, but he is DEFINITELY aikido trained - formally or informally - and in one of the post-war aikikai lines. The taisabaki and techniques are unmistakably aikikai aikido. On the upside, his level of ability at aikido is pretty average by aikido standards, complete with students taking falls for him just like in modern aikido. As such, training in Saiga-ha might not be a total loss, but it definitely is not Daito-ryu (IMO).

Regards,

[Tatsushinden]

Hi there,

Who has read this book http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...oductid=16496?

I've ordered it,and googled the name of Kazuoki Sogawa,whose lineage is unverified according to some people.

what is your opinion on the book,and is their representation of aiki-no-jutsu correct,or is it just some softer Daito-ryu shoden?

Thanks in advance,

[Flintstone]

I really care little about his lineage, but I enjoyed the book and learn a couple of things from it.

Call it Daito Ryu or call it Aikido, it was of good help for me (an Aikido guy).

[John Connolly]

Kazuoki Sogawa of Saigo Ha Daito Ryu demonstrates the aiki no jutsu level of Daito Ryu techniques in this volume. Heavily illustrated.

hmmm.

[knghtazrael]

Originally Posted by John Connolly

Kazuoki Sogawa of Saigo Ha Daito Ryu demonstrates the aiki no jutsu level of Daito Ryu techniques in this volume. Heavily illustrated.

hmmm.

Did I miss something in your post? what was the hmmmm for? Not trying to be rude by anymeans I'm just genuinly curious as to what you might find wrong.


________________
Ray Bellville

[Ron Tisdale]

Do a search on Saigo ha Daito ryu...the posts you find will give you a very good clue.

Best,
Ron

[Tatsushinden]

Well,it's generally accepted that the man is a fraud,but the more fun it could be to see what understanding he has of a subject like aiki-no-jutsu;especially if he's self-taught or something..that's what i'm interested in,if he's compareble to Okamoto for example(however i doubt that)