Daito ryu & Bukiwaza/Emonodori

I understand some branches of Daito Ryu include weapons training and some don't. For those of you that belong to the latter and train in weapons, are most of you getting it from a Japanese art such as kenjutsu, iaido, or jodo? Or from a non-Japanese art such as eskrima/arnis?

Thanks,
Paolo

[Nuutti Kotivuori]

I answer here because no-one else has answered this yet for some reason. I know only superficially what is done - someone who is actually doing this stuff could elaborate.

It is my understanding that in many places Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is trained adjunctly with Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu. However Ono-ha Itto-ryu trained "within" Daito-ryu aikijujutsu is not the same as the mainline Ono-ha Itto-ryu, but a separate line.

Ono-ha Itto-ryu has a multitude of traditional japanese weapons that are taught. Unarmed defense against these weapons is however taught in Daito-ryu aikijujutsu as well.

I am not aware of any groups who would have something else as weapons training than Ono-ha Itto-ryu.

But please, do not take this as how things exactly are, since I'm just an outside observer with very limited experience.

I myself only recently joined our Daito Ryu group.

I understand the Daito Ryu people under Kondo Katsuyuki's branch and some other branches practice Ono-ha Itto Ryu kenjutsu. But not all Daito Ryu branches. Our group is one of those that do not do Ono-ha Itto Ryu. When we do cover a weapon in class (so far, I've seen rope work and a tiny bit of knife), it's usually from someone's background outside of Daito Ryu.

Just wondering if any other Daito Ryu people have studied or concurrently study a non-Japanese weapon art and if so how that weapon study affected their own Daito Ryu movements. Some folks in our group do a little Filipino kali on the side.

Paolo

I have found that the linear movements in a classical sword art I do went hand in hand with Daito ryu. But I remain distinctly unimpressed with Japanese knife work (I have seen) as opposed to the more modern forms and would stay away from it. Movements with a knife based on joint swivels, evasions, entering and trapping work well within a DR framework as well.
If you are talking Daito ryu...Daito ryu is not all the same, neither are the people who do or have done it. Adding sword work or not may do little if anything to enhance an adepts abilities. Some of the best in the world do not do sword. Most if not all of the best freestyle fighters in the world have never studied sword.
I happen to love it and have found _tremendous_ relevancy. How YOU may be able to "see and understand" weapons use in a body art (or not) may have more bearing than any other single factor. In other words -not everyone "gets it" regardless of what they do and who they do it with. Any time spent in a dojo with myriad people will prove that out.

Your mileage may vary- ask your teacher
Good luck and have fun
Dan

[BigJon]

Out of curiosity, does Daito ryu traditionally have it's OWN weapons kata within it anywhere?

Jon Gillespie

[Arman]

Listed in the oldest densho that we have from Sokaku Takeda are a set of kata called Nito ryu (two sword tech.) - I, however, have not seen these kata, nor do I know much about it. Regardless, DR is almost exclusively a jujutsu/aikijujutsu art form, even if some of the curriculum has a foundation in Ono-ha itto ryu.

Best regards,

Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group (mainline)
Maryland

[BigJon]

Thanks for the reply! So if I ever see any DR practitioners with spear it must be Ono ha then.
Jon Gillespie

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

To repeat what has been said many times, the heads of the various branches were not taught in an identical fashion. Some were taught more aiki, some more jujutsu, some certain weapons, and some nearly everything (it seems).

There are a variety of weapons that are incorporated in the Daito ryu from what I've seen and heard - some are practical methods while others exist for the purposes of empty handed defense against the weapons. Some of the "instruments" used are not even weapons, but are used to aid in self-defense.

I do not know of any branches that do not use some kind of weapons. All the major branches of Daito ryu seem to include some amount of weapon work, even though most students may not ever train long enough to be exposed to them. If you are looking to learn weapons, then Daito ryu may not be the art for you, or, it may at least be a much longer path and perhaps a superficial study.

However, densho were issued, by Sokaku I assume, that pertained specifically to spear, sword, two swords and staff. A part of the mainline Hiden Mokuroku also contains the use of weapons and other "instruments".

How instuction is structured and to what extent and at what time will vary from branch to branch though.

Also, I agree with what Dan said. Studying sword and other Japanese weapons can greatly enhance your understanding of Japanese martial arts. But, only if you "get it", which if this happens, will take quite some time. Just picking up a bokken and swinging it at imaginary enemies or cutting soggy targets will not help you much if at all.

Regards,

[O'Neill]

Do any of the DR branches still teach the spear and other weapons, it would be sad to see the buki waza of Sokaku Takeda fade away. That would be a discredit to the leaders of the DR community.

[Nathan Scott]

The weapons techniques demonstrated publicly seem to be focused on defense against spear and other weapons, rather than emphasizing the use of the weapons themselves.

However, the Seiden DR Aikibujutsu line (Sagawa) is known to have a weapons curriculum, and some dojo/branches (such as the ex-Seishinkai group) still teach the Ono-ha itto ryu that was taught by Takeda Tokimune.

It is well known that Sokaku was advised to shift the focus of his teachings to unarmed martial arts following the Meiji Restoration. It is possible that Sokaku didn't teach all the weapon methods he knew as a result.

Regards,

[jdostie]

I have only just started Daito Ryu training in the last week, but when our sensei gave us a brief introduction, I believe he indicated that the very basis of the system is the sword - or daito. Even the unarmed techniques if I understood correctly don't fall too far from those roots.

Is that different from your understanding?

[jdostie]

I misunderstood. The name Daito Ryu has nothing to do with the sword. However, the movements, etc. are linked to the use of the sword. In other words, the principles of movement work the same weather holding a weapon or not. Our teacher tells us to think of the weapons as extensions, and he has shown us how some of the movements look both with and without a weapon.

I think that is the basis - if I (hopefully) now understand correctly.