Gojushiho Dai and Sho

The subject came up on another forum of the (apocryphal?) story of the naming of the two Kata.
The story I have heard is that a high ranking JKA instructor was competing and mis-stated the name of his Kata (either Gojushiho Dai or Sho, take your pick.). Because he outranked the judges the names of the Kata were changed from then on. Is this true? Does anyone know who was involved and when?
Thanks!

[Sochin]

Cool story - I never heard it before.

I'm in Denver next summer for Animal's BBQ. Do you do Gojushiho Sho? I'd love to see it.

I've never learned Gojushiho Sho. Although, if the story is true, I do know Gojushiho Sho. It would be the Dai iteration that I didn't learn.
In Seibukan we do "Gojushiho," singular, which is vastly different form the Gojushiho Dai I learned. Many of the Seibukan Kata are vastly different from the Shotokan kata I did for two decades! It makes them even more interesting!

There are a couple of different versions of Gojushiho. One has the odd "drunken man" movement (common to the Shorin ryu), the other does not. I suspect that dai and sho may be ways of distinguishing the two. For years I heard there were three Bassai... Dai, Sho, and Tomari Bassai. I finally learned that "Tomari Bassai" is merely the Tomari version of Bassai Dai. You will find this occurs many times with different versions of the same kata done a bit differently by the old guys or in different villages. Kosokun Dai is another kata with about a dozen variations. Gene

No, there are actually two older versions of the same kata, Gojushiho, but I do not consider them two different kata. Gene

And you should know that Shito-ryu is not Shorinji-ryu, whatever in the hell that is. Gene

Originally posted by Gene Williams
And you should know that Shito-ryu is not Shorinji-ryu, whatever in the hell that is. Gene

Eh?

[don]

Originally posted by hobbitbob
The story I have heard is that a high ranking JKA instructor was competing and mis-stated the name of his Kata (either Gojushiho Dai or Sho, take your pick.). Because he outranked the judges the names of the Kata were changed from then on. Is this true? Does anyone know who was involved and when?
Thanks!

This is related at a very interesting (and critical) site http://www.24fightingchickens.com/sh...ushihosho.html

"It is not widely known that the kata have had their names reversed by the JKA. Normally, when there are two kata with the same name, one is the dai ("Big") kata and the other is the sho ("Small") kata. The sho kata is usually much shorter and more complicated, thus the name Gojushiho-Sho means "Small 54 Steps." If you examine these kata, it is pretty clear that they are not named properly. The Dai kata is small-scale and more complicated than the Sho kata. This is not in keeping with the other Dai-Sho pairings such as Bassai-Dai and Bassai-Sho or Kanku-Dai and Kanku-Sho.

"Originally, Gojushiho Dai was the name given to the more basic of the two. Containing many back stances and larger scale movements than the original Sho kata, this is the one believed to have been created first and the Sho kata was thought to be added later. However, it is rumored that in a JKA tournament some years ago, a now very high-ranking Ueki performed the Dai kata while accidentally calling out the name "Gojushiho-Sho!" in the last round of competition on National Television in Japan.

According to this story, the judges were befuddled, since the performance was perfect, about what to do with Ueki and his misnamed kata. Their solution: give Ueki first place, and switch the names of the two kata. So, today the karateka who outrank Ueki generally call the more basic kata Dai. However, most people in the JKA, and the Best Karate series of books refer to the more difficult kata as Dai and the easier kata as Sho. Is the story about Ueki true? Maybe not."

Hi Don, You write as though Gojushiho is the property of the JKA, when it is actually a much older Okinawan kata. Funakoshi monkeyed around with all the Okinawan kata and changed not only some moves, but the entire spirit and strategy of the kata. Anyway, that was a pretty typical Japanese way of dealing with a difficult social situation. There are two distinct Okinawan versions of Gojushiho, one from Itosu and one, I believe, from Kyan. However, they are similar enough to be considered the same kata. Gene

Shorinji-ryu is a modern style of karate founded by Hisataka Kori. The name has been misappropriated by a lot of modern wannabees. Shito-ryu is an Okinawan style of karate, which exploded around Osaka Japan when Mabuni moved from Okinawa and started teaching there in 1922. Though many mistakenly call it a Japanese style because of its popularity there, it really isn't. By the way, most of the seniors on this sight are not impressed by name dropping. By the way, Chotoku Kyan (1870-1945) founded Shobayashi Shorin-ryu and was a student of Itosu and Matsumura. You have your Shorin's and your Ji's mixed up. Gene

[Sochin]

Lee and Gene,

you guys kiss and make up or I will lock this thread until I get a pm that this has been done. We are not interested so don't wreck a good thread.

In Seibukan (The Kyan lineage via Zempo Shjimabukuro) our Gojushiho bears some resemblance to the one done by Matsubayashi ryu.

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
There are a couple of different versions of Gojushiho. One has the odd "drunken man" movement (common to the Shorin ryu), the other does not.

JKA's Gojushiho Sho is virtually identical to Shito Ryu's Gojushiho. Nakayama, in Randall Hassel's book talks about being sent to Mabuni to Learn Gojushiho and Niseishi.

I suspect that dai and sho may be ways of distinguishing the two. For years I heard there were three Bassai... Dai, Sho, and Tomari Bassai. I finally learned that "Tomari Bassai" is merely the Tomari version of Bassai Dai. You will find this occurs many times with different versions of the same kata done a bit differently by the old guys or in different villages. Kosokun Dai is another kata with about a dozen variations. Gene

There are indeed several Bassai's Gene. Matsumura, Bassai Dai, Bassai Sho and Oyadomari, at least.

Rob

[Rob Alvelais]

I'm inclined to go along with Gene here. The Matsubayashi shorin Ryu Gojushiho is a bit different from the Shito Gojushiho. Matsubayashi Shorin ryu was heavily influenced by Kyan. the Shito Gojushiho comes from Itosu, via Mabuni. Or at least that's what we're told! ;-)

Rob

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi Don, You write as though Gojushiho is the property of the JKA, when it is actually a much older Okinawan kata. Funakoshi monkeyed around with all the Okinawan kata and changed not only some moves, but the entire spirit and strategy of the kata. Anyway, that was a pretty typical Japanese way of dealing with a difficult social situation. There are two distinct Okinawan versions of Gojushiho, one from Itosu and one, I believe, from Kyan. However, they are similar enough to be considered the same kata. Gene

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by hobbitbob
In Seibukan (The Kyan lineage via Zempo Shjimabukuro) our Gojushiho bears some resemblance to the one done by Matsubayashi ryu.

That would make sense to me!

Rob