Proprioception

[David Dunn]

To start another thread, a subject which has been alluded to recently here. Hopefully George will weigh in as he's been researching it a bit lately. By way of something to read about it:
A short essay

In a nutshell proprioception is how the brain understands and senses the position of the body in space and how it reacts to the changing environment that the body finds itself in. I guess an easy example is stumbling on a cracked pavement - the stumble being important, because it is a proprioceptive response to prevent falling over. A lot of study is being made of proprioception, largely of cases where people have lost it.

To bring it to Shorinji Kempo juho, and the discussion about how to 'throw' a partner. First off, the 'throw' is less active than that; rather, you are trying to induce someone to fall over or even throw themselves over. This can be achieved by exploiting a person's natural response to forces on their body. For example, if you can induce someone to lose balance onto one leg only, then depending on the direction of the applied force, the response is to step/hop/stumble. Intervening in this response can cause someone to fall over.

Anyway, this is quite new to me, so I was a) pointing in the direction of the subject and b) hoping for some discussion of it, and how it may be useful to training.

[David Dunn]

ps - I omitted the most important part; it is an entirely unconscious process, which is why it can be exploited for juho.

[tony leith]

I've been thinking about this for a while, especially re. the component of psychological deception involved in juho waza (if that's the right phrase, because proprioception (prop. from now on) is not operating on a conscious level - presumably it's been around a lot longer in our evolutionary history than consciousness). Most juho waza do rely on in some way confounding the expectations of an attacker - at the most basic level, when somebody grabs somebody else aggressively, they probably expect to meet direct active resistance. If they don't, this seems to be confusing at a level which it's difficult to do anything about. Another common element is the moving of an attacker in more than one direction - again it's the unexpected change of direction which tends the get them, typically at a point when they are balanced - or better, unbalanced- on one foot. From what I understand of Morei Sensei's teaching, it can perhaps be interpreted in this light, and is an already systematised approach to juho waza. I suppose thinking about this systematically is the key to extracting generaliseable insights. Over to George...

Tony leith

[David Dunn]

Tony (et al.) - if you have an Athens account you can search the academic literature for studies of various elements of proprioception. Moreover it seems that a lot of the physiological mechanisms are well known.

[jonboy]

Just a couple of questions.

Does each individual have the same proprioceptive response? i.e. How universal is it? Does everyone have the same response, but different time periods over which it acts?

[David Dunn]

Not sure Jon; here's a thought.

1940 FRAENKEL & GUNN Orientation of Animals iv. 37 In the knee-jerk the stimulus is translated by the proprioceptors in the leg, goes to the central nervous system and is there, so to say, reflected back to the leg, where it is translated into effect or action.

A while back I picked up a knee injury. On visiting the physiotherapist I was given some excercises to improve my proprioception - apparently after some injuries the response to losing balance (for example) can change.

This would suggest to me that if proprioception can vary in one person, it also probably varies slightly person to person. Whether theres differences in type of response (i.e. different response to certain stimuli) or magnitude of response (i.e. level/timing of compensation) I wouldn't have a clue.

Not sure if that makes any sense, but I thought I'd throw it in all the same.

Ian

[George Hyde]

Hi All,

I'll try to keep this brief.

Firstly, my explorations into this area are from a cognitive psychological perspective rather than the physiological and unfortunately, as Dave notes, most of the material out there is from the latter and involves investigations into 'deaferented' subjects, drawing comparisons with 'normals'. As such it's a bit difficult for a dilettante like me to extract the simple facts and a fair percentage of my alleged knowledge is therefore simply a collection of interpretations and assumptions based on material and personal experience.

One thing that I must stress - Mori Sensei probably never even heard of proprioception! It is highly likely that all the academic knowledge in the world will be of no use whatsoever without the cultivated sensitivity displayed by such gifted individuals!

So, with these caveats in mind...

Proprioceptive responses are universal in the sense that:
- the stimulus (be it pain or balance) will elicit an appropriate response
- the response is unconscious (unless expected/anticipated and 'called into' consciousness by the subject)
- the response is a corrective measure with the aim of meeting the primary functions of operating in the environment (balance/co-ordination) and avoiding injury

However, there are a number of possible responses to all stimuli - whilst the subject's response may fit the above criteria, it will not necessarily be the same (though it's usually similar) to another's, both in terms of manner and magnitude.

There's also a number of ways of looking at the above statements and doubtless lots of experimental and anecdotal evidence against...

- despite receiving a number of 'stimuli' to which the body will give 'appropriate' responses, human beings still injure themselves and frequently fall over
- whether we are or are not conscious of the phenomenon is open to almost limitless philosophical debate and whether 'below consciousness' also means 'beyond control' is also a vulnerable statement
- the idea that proprioception has a 'job' to do may be fairly simple, however, the parameters of what that 'job' entails are open to quesiton

One thing that must be understood about proprioception is that it is not the function of an organ. It is not a 'balance muscle' or even a clever little bit of the brain that looks after such things. It is an interconnected and interdependent faculty of the nervous system - an emergent property thereof, if you like. You can think of it as a central control system taking second-by-second reports from sensors all over the body, as well as a first person view of the outside world, and integrating this into an assessment of the state of affairs. As and when circumstances change it makes calculations and issues appropriate orders to the various bits of the body required to act in order to maintain order. These circumstances need not be extreme - this may be something as simple as walking, standing up or reaching for a glass of water. However, this 'central control' idea is a very limited picture since much of the things the body does to maintain order rely on tiny 'nervous circuit loops' entirely independent of the rest of the body, each looking after their own little world.

So - as the outsider 'messing with' another person's proprioception, what you have is something that you may manipulate in certain ways in order to elicit certain responses which are - to a degree - predictable.

I hope to be in a position to conduct some proper experimentation of my own in the not too distant future. I'm already working on a number of research questions and hypotheses, but I've got a pile of research to do before designing anything.

Some things to be going on with...

Sight is a major contributor to the integrity of proprioception - try pulling someone around and see how well they manage to keep their balance. Even though they may be consciously 'attending' to the task of not falling over, much of what they are consciously doing is likely to be simply 'observing' unconscious responses of proprioiception (but like I said, that's open to debate). Then blindfold them and see how well they perform. This is particularly evident if you tilt and move the head around. Says a lot for me-uchi!

Here's another one: try to draw someone's balance in one direction by pulling slowly on their dogi sleeve. Eventually they'll step or hop to regain balance (it helps if they don't know what you're looking for). Then without taking their balance, apply gyakute waza. They should dip their shoulder and stick their bum out (very scientific!). This is proprioception attending INDIVIDUALLY to the two aspects of balance maintenance and injury avoidance. Then put the two together beginning with the gyakute waza - the back foot (opposite to the arm being turned) should lift from the ground in a backward motion, enabling them to turn and fall over. Notice I said "enabling" - IMHO, proprioception is making a calculation weighing the pros and cons of maintaining balance against avoiding injury. In such cases, injury avoidance will win every time and 'falling over' actually becomes the appropriate proprioceptive response!

Of course, proprioception has to be unconscious in order to work - you couldn't operate otherwise. But this doesn't mean that the subject can't override what proprioception is telling him/her to do and intervene. This is why I brought it up in the "most difficult technique" thread. During productive practice, there are times when we have to 'hear' what proprioception is telling us so that we can ignore it, thereby allowing the technique to work - this is the attacker's responsibility - it's a function of 'sutemi'.

There's also a lot of ground to cover in considering the role of proprioception in kyo-jitsu and particularly in goju-ittai - but I've blathered on enough already.

Later,

[tony leith]

Interesting stuff - I wasn't alleging that Mori Sensei presented his approach to juho waza in these terms, merely that it seems to me that some of his ideas (as I understand them - another important caveat) can be understood in that light. Understanding the theory of something like proprioception will not necessarily help you to actually apply it - for my money, the efficacy of juho waza is another 'emergent property' of the individuals understadning of the many elements that make a technique - but it maybe gives us a handle on the overall dynamic of juho techniques, a way of approaching them scientifically but in a holistic rather than overly reductionist way.

Re. the point about attackers unconsciously protecting themselves; this is true, and there is a self sacraficial aspect to playing the attacker (pretty fundemental to the reciprocity involved in practising Shorinji Kempo), but I think one which of obviating this is to encouirage attackers to actually grab with offensive intent. The principles of kyo and jitsu apply to juho waza as well as to goho waza, and if the attacker actually grabs with intent they presumably won't be able to be so concerned with self protection. In my observation commited attacks during juho waza practice are the exception rather than the rule - understandable for beginners, but it seems to hold right through the grades.

Tony leith

[David Dunn]

In my observation commited attacks during juho waza practice are the exception rather than the rule

Hear, hear Tony. In juho the attacker usually seems to think the purpose is to catch and hold on for dear life. (I know that those most proficient can still perform the waza using whatever little kosha gives them). The attacker ought to make their attack jitsu, so that the defender can exploit the kyo they make doing it. It is akin to being the attacker for uchi uke zuki, and only making a feint, followed by kinteki geri after you move - again not a problem to a kenshi with good zanshin and timing, but utterly useless for learning.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I have a question regarding proprioception. please forgive me if I appear uneducated in this matter, it is because I AM uneducated in this matter, hence the question .

Is the blink reflex an example of proprioception? The near-instant closure of the eyelids in response to wind, dust or other foreign objects. Detected with the aid of the eyelashes, but operating without the need for conscious decision-making in the mind.

If so, can it be conditioned and trained?

From a strictly practical point of view, I would like to know how to go about training away the "eek-I'm-being-hit-so-I'd-better-close-my-eyes" reflex which so often became a feature of my particular style of Randori .

[George Hyde]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Is the blink reflex an example of proprioception? The near-instant closure of the eyelids in response to wind, dust or other foreign objects. Detected with the aid of the eyelashes, but operating without the need for conscious decision-making in the mind.

Not 100% sure on this - the definitive answer would have to come from someone who has studied this in much greater depth than I. I would suspect that the distinction would be a fairly slim one and be tied to which bits of the nervous system are involved.

As far as I see it, what you're referring to is a reflex - a 'hard-wired' response mechanism which does not require conscious intervention. On that definition alone, most proprioceptive responses could neatly fall into the same category, but like I said - not for me to say as yet.

As I understand it, this particular reflex is triggered by the rapid activation of large of portions of the visual system and presents in humans at a very early age. It's supposed to trigger a flinch/duck response. Similar reflexes include the 'gag-reflex' which is triggered by sudden unexpected or prolonged absence of oxygen.

If so, can it be conditioned and trained?[/b]

The former can (otherwise we're all in trouble) but the latter - being far more critical to the survival of the organism - is much harder to resist. 'Free-Divers' (those nutters who spend inordinately long periods under water for the fun of it) have been known to do this quite successfully - some have even been subjected to clinical trial and, to all intents and purposes, been found to no longer have a gag reflex.

From a strictly practical point of view, I would like to know how to go about training away the "eek-I'm-being-hit-so-I'd-better-close-my-eyes" reflex which so often became a feature of my particular style of Randori .

Well - IMHO that's what it's all about! Hokei holds all the answers for this providing you approach it in the right way (see Dave's article on the BSKF site). It helps if you can see beyond the technical as well - you should be aware of the "eek..." bit of your statement - this is emotional content and as such emphasises the reflexivity of your responses. We often say that MA practice "improves reflexes" - my approach is to remove reflexes and replace them with appropriate responses.

Easy!

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thanks George. My "Eek-..." was a major weakness, that I never managed to overcome. But there are so many more...

I just wondered if interpreting this action as a proprioceptive response would enable me to find some effective solutions to the problem. Mind you, if seen as simply a problem that affected my randori, then I already have a more than effective solution; I haven't done any randori in 15 years!!

Easy!!

[George Hyde]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
I just wondered if interpreting this action as a proprioceptive response would enable me to find some effective solutions to the problem.

Knowing that the response is reflexive (built in - part of the program, so to speak) it doesn't really matter whether it's part of proprioception or not.

What's important here is perception: Between the stimulus and the response there is a whole lot of cognitive stuff going on. The mechanical workings of the brain are largely the same from one person to the next, but the outcome of all that clunking and whirring after the stimulus can give rise to a wide variety of responses dictated by the individual's experience.

Opinions differ, but this process is generally referred to as "top-down" processing. i.e. we take the sensory information (be it visual, tactile or whatever) and run it through a filter of everything we already know about that kind of stimulus. This includes the sum total of our experience of the circumstances faced and all the 'hard-wired' stuff that came with the product at birth. The process basically meets the task of 'making sense' of the situation and the response to the stimulus is the result of that processing.

In training, the idea is to set up and exploit learning opportunities which modify, expand and enhance that previous knowledge (i.e., we learn) with the aim of generating an alternative and appropriate response. This includes 'overwriting' all the hard-wired programming as well.

However, it's easy to see this model as an entirely mechanical process. What we have to understand is that every stimulus we come across has an emotional content (even the mundane stuff), and processing that is a different kind of cognitive job. We have to conceptualise and clarify our purpose. In essence, when you see a fist flying towards your face do you perceive DANGER! or OPPORTUNITY?

If you conceptualise combative situations with the objective of 'not getting hit' you'll continue to intuitively categorise and process the stimulus as 'dangerous'. The likely response triggered will be exclusively defensive and reflexive. By that I mean more knee-jerk and uncontrolled than purposive. You may actually avoid getting hit (and experience tells me that you'll actually become quite proficient at it) but what you won't do is intervene and stop your opponent. Eventually, you're going to get hit. If you conceptualise your objective in this latter category of 'stopping your opponent' then this necessitates becoming aware of the opportunities for intervention, which in turn necessitates perceiving the stimulus differently.

Mind you, if seen as simply a problem that affected my randori, then I already have a more than effective solution; I haven't done any randori in 15 years!!

Sorted!

However, the above model can (simplistically speaking) be applied to any pattern of behaviour. Your perceptions are shaped by a combination of how you conceptualise your objectives and your past experience. Just knowing that is a step in the right direction towards modifying your own behaviour - but like I said up-thread - knowing 'what' isn't necessarily knowing 'how'.

Later,

[budoboy]

Interesting topic.

In the martial arts (at a higher level) there is a lot of exploitation of an opponent's wired responses.

An example. When someone attempts to punch you in the face. If you interpose something between the target and the attackers focus at the right time you can actually redirect their strike by moving the newly acquired target (I've worked on this one a lot). This comes from some primitive sort of tracking program in our subconscious which follows movement (prey drive?).

Another example. When someone steps in to punch you in the face. If you point torwards the person foot just before he picks it up off the ground it has the tendency of causing the person to retard the movement of that leg (he almost trips). This is quite difficult to do consistently and depends on the correct timing and the correct feeling when applied. The consensus amongst my students and I is that it feels as if there is something in front of your feet just as you begin to move. This causes your lower body to hesitate in order to avoid colliding with an imaginary obstacle. The upper body is thrown forward because of its momentum.

One more example. When someone goes to grab your arm. If you move just as they begin to reach for your arm you cause your opponent to continue following his target. You can make the opponent grab you in a very awkward position (unbalanced and very tense. You can also cause your opponent to rely on your outstretched arm for balance. You can very easily relax your arm and cause your opponent to fall.
Subconsciously a person clings to anything that will keep him from falling.

One last example. When someone grabs you tightly. If you can unbalance that person dramatically his arms will relax and they will move out and away from his body to break his fall or find something to hang onto. My instructor equates this to an ape falling from a tree reaching out frantically with both hands to find another limb before he hits the ground.

There are lots of examples of using a person's subconscious wiring to foul up their physical and mental balance.

Interesting stuff.