Reevaluating the motives of the 47 ronin

[John Lindsey]

Recently, I was talking to someone over here in Japan about the 47 Ronin and their burial at Sengakuji. I was surprised to learn that some people feel that the motives and actions of the 47 Ronin were not all so honorable and that there might have been other reasons behind their actions. Anyone else have any information on this? Is the tale of the 47 Ronin so embedded in the Japanese psyche that if this was true, it would not change anything?

[koma]

Could it be that peoples perception of "honor" might have changed? That what was honorable and just, 300 years ago is not considered so now?
Or pehaps there is new research into the matter? I personally would want to see evidence of contemporary documentation supporting such a claim before I would accept it as fact or give it much thought. Too often, people who try to discredit historical icons do so for purely personal reasons,( monetary or notariety). I think too many historians or quasi-historians put their own "spin" on research, or try to psycho-analyze people that have been dead for centuries, to make their version appear new and fresh. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I would lean more towards believing it if someone would produce contemporary documentation. Not just some theory that someone developed or a feeling that someone has.
In absence of that proof, I will just raise a bowl of sake and say," Well done gentlemen!"

[Earl Hartman]

I wouldn't take the views of the author of the Hagakure too seriously. He was, from all accounts, a desk jockey who spouted theories about what a "true" bushi should be but who never actually put his life on the line.

It is true that the Ako men acted in secret and waited for the opportune moment. The reason? They wanted to be sure that they would be successful in killing the man who had caused the death of their lord. Can you imagine what would have happened if they had acted openly and informed the bakufu of their plans as the law required? They would have died gloriously, perhaps, as befits a Hagakure bushi, but Kira would have survived. IIRC, the author of the Hagakure disparages the idea that it is dishonorable to die with one's purpose unaccomplished; that is, it is better to go out in an aesthetic blaze of glory than to actually achieve one's goal. You know, the glory of the bushi sacrificing his life in a doomed cause and scattering like the cherry blossoms and all of that rot.

If you are a real warrior or a soldier, such an idea must be laughable. What is the point of all of that if your enemy is still alive? So, rather than act "honorably" by following rules that would have surely doomed their enterprise to failure, the Ako men hid their true intentions, bore the opprobrium of society, deceived their enemies and lulled them into complacency, and then seized the opening and struck to avenge their lord, knowing that their lives were forfeit.

Sounds about right to me.

I have also heard of a theory that holds that the bakufu realized that their treatment of Asano, their confiscation of his fief, and the fact that Kira was not punished in any way had made them very unpopular. Therefore, they deliberately looked the other way and allowed the vendetta to happen, sort of as a sop to popular sentiment, even though they could have stopped it. This seems quite plausible to me.

[Margaret Lo]

I guess the story is popular for its perfect illustration of the principal (one of many it embodies) that what is right is not necessarily legal.

The Bakufu must have been bloated and filled to the max with bureaucrats who have as much interest in honor and righteous behavior as your average IRS agent or lawyer.

I understand Tokugawa citizens may have been one of the more heavily regulated people of their time.

M

[Joseph Svinth]

The comparison to the IRS agent seems quite apt, as the job involves duty rather than what one would like to do, or even feels just.

Most lawyers probably face equal challenges, as what they do involves determining what is legal, rather than what is right, moral, ethical, or just.

[Jock Armstrong]

Spot on Earl!! Who said they weren't considered gallant??? There were depositions to the bakufu for their complete exoneration since they acted more like samurai than most of them for over a century.The bakufu was in a bind because they had enacted laws forbidding blood vengance and duelling- thats why they were allowed to take the "honorabl" way out. Revisionist historians fall into the trap of seeing events thru modern eyes. I cant remember who said it but he was dead right. "The past is a different country, they speak a different language"--and they had different views on things like human life, honor and so forth.Earl is right about ole Tsunetomo- he didn't know jack about combat. Remember, one of the reasons guys like him were writing these draconian leaflets was that the warriors weren't doing it.

[Kingu]

It is also said that the emperor ordered to the youngest of the ronin to stay alive so he could maintain the tombs of his companions.
In addition, the En-Ya clan was reconstituted for Asano's brother.

This tends to prove that, at the time, the murder of Kira was yet seen as an honorable act of revenge.

[Michael Wert]

The action of the 47 ronin were debated by Neo-Confucian scholars throughout the Tokugawa period. Basically, the majority opinion was that though the ronin actions could be considered "gallant" because they were being loyal to their lord, in the end, their breaking of the law was against their 'public' duty. I believe (I'd have to check) scholars usually discussed this in terms of giri ninjo. Giri was what they broke the bakufu's law even though the ronin action evoked ninjo.

Other debates included why, when their lord was punished for drawing a sword in the Shogun' residence (that was the real crime), wasn't his enemy killed as well. Accroding to kenka ryoseibai, both participants in such an altercation were to be punished. That, however, wasn't the case.

That the ronin did not avenge their lord on the spot was not just the critisism of Hagakure's author.

Michael Wert
UC Irvine
History Ph.D student

[JRSims]

As others on this thread have noted, contemporary opinions were divided on the question of the motives and conduct of the Ako ronin. Readers might find the following essay worthwhile, as it contains an interesting discussion of the criticisms made by various Confucian scholars regarding the Ako ronin incident.

Tucker, John Allan
Rethinking the Ako Ronin Debate: The Religious Significance of Chushin gishi

Tucker's essay can be found in the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies, Spring 1999, 26/1–2.

[Ellis Amdur]

Another point that Otake Risuke stated approx. 25 years ago to me, that Asano was fully and shamefully responsible for the death of his men. Asano was not a student of any bujutsu ryu-ha. Instead, he studied some form of heiho - battlefield tactics. Thus, Otake said, when he lost his temper, he drew his short sword and slashed at Kira, twice, and was not able to kill him. Then, miming hugging someone close and stabbing him, Otake said, "If he had actually known how to use a weapon, there would have been no need for his samurai to have had to seek vengeance."

Best

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

[Earl Hartman]

Well, there is that. If the version of the story I have heard bears any relation to the truth, Asano was a fool who destroyed his clan, and, thus, the lives of his men, simply because he couldn't keep his temper. The more I think about it, the bigger a fool he seems. And, Otake Sensei is correct. If Asano had known what he was doing, he could have ended it then and there and his men wouldn't have had to throw their lives away for a man who did not have the maturity and sense to realize the conseuqences of his actions, or, even worse, knew what would happen but went ahead and did it anyway.

[Prince Loeffler]

Hi Guys,

I tried googling for the story of the 47 Ronin and can't seem to find one. Can anyone kindly post one here ?

Thank in advance !

[Mekugi]

From Wikpedia

From The Samurai Archives

CLIFF notes on the boring damned play

Film anaology- the best one I think

Personally, I think all these "Ronin" were ALL bunch of dolts to die for their lord, who was a fool to begin with. I am also in the "War and Peace" crowd who thinks that this topic, as well as War and Peace, has been discussed to DEATH (heehee...pun). I just don't get the ritual suicide thing, the movie is boring and the story never really enthralled me. What a party pooper I am.

-Rawsty

[Walker]

Originally posted by Mekugi
I just don't get the ritual suicide thing... What a party pooper I am.
-Rawsty

Awww, Russ. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.

[Earl Hartman]

Hey, Russ, remember, if you can't throw your life away without a second thought just 'cause your superior tells you to, you obviously don't understand The True Yamato Damashii and you obviuously shouldn't be studying budo since it is The Embodiment of Bushido and the True Yamato Damashii. But, of course, you're a foreigner. What can you expect? Only Japanese can Really Understand. You might as well come home right now and take up baseball.

What the.....? Damn, my tongue is wedged so far into my cheek I can't get it out.