Firearms & Sanshin

[Neil Richardson]

Hi folks,

Just a quick question, how many of you practice Sanshin no Kata with a firearm?

Neil.

[The Tengu]

I have found that sanshin no kata is good practice for creating distance between you and someone else so that you have room to draw, since you can use shoshin no kamae to put your hand strong-side.

I also try to practice maintaining distance once the handgun has been drawn, since closing the distance (like you would for a follow-up strike) will negate the inherent advantage of a ranged weapon and it would also put me in danger of being disarmed.

[poryu]

Hi

I would be interested in knowing how you would do sui or ka no kata with a hand gun.

[Neil Richardson]

Poryu wrote:
how you would do sui or ka no kata with a hand gun.

Not heard of 'pistol whipping'???

Neil.

[jinji han]

Not many at our groups try to integrate these ancient kata and modern handgun techniques. Other kata would seem more suitable.

I have seen veterans in IRGUN KVUZOT arguing about the use of chi no kata. The problem seemed to be putting a bullet in the chamber when the front hand distances the opponent. What was decided, if my memory seves me right, is that the whole thing should be done after the initial gedan yuke while moving away from the opponent so the back hand could be near the front one to load the gun.
Also there was alot of practice sessions dealing with insights gained from certain kata and their aplication. Especialy interesting were lessons dealing with movment with bulletproof vest and certain similarities to armour clad katas in kukisinden ryu.

drifted away from your question... sorry, but to sum it up. we mainly train on sunshin no kata with bladed weapons or empty handed.

[tenchijin2]

Jinji Han: Your post is very interesting in that it deals with the idea of 'israeli carry' or condition 3 carry. Most Americans use condition 1 or 2.

Moving on:

I do not use sanshin specifically with a firearm, because it allows too much poor gun handling. You NEVER "pistol whip" with a gun. The gun should ONLY point in the direction you intend to shoot. Skilled shooters spend many many hours honing the skill of muzzle direction control. There are 'kamae' and 'kihon' to this skill.

You can develop this skill if you always ask "where is the muzzle pointed?" If it is ever pointed at a wall, door, or someone else in the dojo that isn't 'the target' then you have poor handling skills.

Conceptually, somethinglike sui no kata would be: jodan uke, omote shuto... then if the shuto has bought you a little space you use the other hand (which has returned to bobi position) to draw your weapon. Or use a henka and step BACK with the shuto. The gun is a projectile weapon. Get some distance.

[The Tengu]

Originally posted by Neil Richardson

Not heard of 'pistol whipping'???

Neil.

Don't do any pistol whipping. Especially if you normally carry with a round in the chamber.

There are so many factors involved. Where do you carry your gun? Which side are you attacked from? Do you carry with a round chambered? Etc, etc.

If you go into a migi shoshin no kamae and you're right-handed, unless you carry in the small of your back, it will be hard to get to the weapon from that position.

If you don't carry chambered, you're going to have to charge the weapon before you can use it.

So for sui and ka, I guess there are a few ways to employ the handgun.

One could be going halfway, as in: uke nagashi > draw from shoshin > get some DISTANCE

Another could be to go through with the kata and then draw: uke nagash > shuto/get DISTANCE > draw from shoshin

Training in this is really all conceptual, though. I wouldn't try it for real. It's nice to show the adaptability between ancient and modern, and we all know Hatsumi Soke has demonstrated this concept, but I don't think shoshin no kamae was developed for guns. The Weaver stance variants are, though.

Drawing from shoshin could be useful for drawing your gun from an unarmed state, but after the weapon is presented, I think you should go straight into a "modern" position.

[The Tengu]

Errr... nevermind, just read Mr. Keith's post.

Just some thoughts from training with firearms from the 80's.

As I remember, we never did the actual Gogyo forms with an Uke-Nagashi and then a hand strike. If an Uke was used, space was then made to draw and chamber the weapon.

The Sanshin forms in Hatsumi So'ke's Knife and Pistol book are referred to as Sanshin Uchi/Shachi/Sachi translated as Three Hearts Shooting. The emphasis behind this was to use the Sanshin form to align the weapon with the target, and then continuing with a step into a One Hand Posture for the purpose of minimizing the size of your exposed body as a target. Accuracy with a one handed posture being handy when firing along a wall or from behind suitable cover. This would be an alternate Shooting Kamae to the orthodox two handed grip with the body more exposed which is the norm when teaching shooting basics, perhaps more viable when used by a police officer with backup, a vest and the authority to point a weapon at someone.

Interesting to note, the other firing position being dropping to one knee to the Shuriken throwing position which also reduces exposed body size and height position.

Referencing the Knife and Pistol book, There are no examples of the entire Sanshin No Kata. The only reference to another motion from Sanshin No Kata is the draw from an armpit holstered weapon. Doesn't look like an Ura-Shuto' to me, just the motion of aligning the weapon with the target from the armpit area. The other aligning position is from a Jo'Dan/Doko position but this too is simply an aligning to the target and step through to the side on position. There is also a reference to the Kakushi-Shachi, the hidden firing position.

Sensei spoke of not being dependant on the bullet to make the firearm a weapon, especially since it can be a trap to become dependant on it being used only as that, a firearm. Sensei speaks of being able to use the gun shape not for simple pistol whipping, but for weapon retention while controlling muzzle alignment while in a scuffle, or weapon retention if someone tries to draw your holstered weapon. The general idea was how to use the shape of the pistol or rifle as a non-edged weapon, much the way we are using Tessen and Kunai this year. The reasoning being, what if you had a pistol and it wasn't loaded or the chamber wasn't charged. Out of ammo, gun jam or misfire, or completely disabled weapon and you get into a scuffle. Of course during a misfire the weapon is still live and the focus is on keeping weapon alignment not just from yourself but also bystanders, or even purposefully pointing/aiming at other opponent's as well. The idea here being control, put it in his armpit and let him worry about it going off unexpectedly. A very interesting technique Hatsumi Sensei taught was using the chambering mechanism of the pistol to strike an opponent while pointing the weapon straight up or at another target.

Brin Morgan taught that when clearing an area or assailant to disable a confiscated or abandoned weapon by separating the magazine and leaving the weapon and moving on as being a common tactic to keep someone else from re-using it against you in particular. In this instance you would have a metal bludgeon still.

Many of the odd looking techniques using Taihenjutsu were used if the weapon arm was knocked away by an incoming opponent, or if a Gyaku-Waza was used to try to strip it from you. Using Taihenjutsu then to align the weapon with your assailant and even take a position beneath him, firing up instead of casually across a room. Also of course keeping the weapon trained on your opponent as you use a roll to get to cover. This dropping Kamae is also important if you slip or fall, being aware and keeping the weapon trained not only at your opponent but also not at your foot as you fall in case of it accidentally going off.

Just some thoughts and oh yes, I have had the pleasure of shooting with Aric Keith... the man knows his stuff ... and the closest thing I know of to the Robo-cop clearing the room with two pistols... hehe...

[kenanderson]

When over at my instructor's house one night he brought out a videotape of one of the Japanese shihan's classes. In it he did all the sanshin with a handgun, which blew me away since I've never even thought of that before. I couldn't tell you exactly what he did exactly(some drawing, aiming, and using the firearm as a bludgeoning weapon among other things), but it seemed very effective.