Are all samurai nihilists?

[Cody]

What do you think?

[Soulend]

Can't see any of the definitions applying to all samurai. Then again, the question is phrased in the present tense, so I must admit I don't know any personally since they were abolished as a class well over a century ago.

[Cody]

ok, my bad. my mother tongue (Chinese) have no tense, so I never picked up the nuances of past tense vs present.

-Cody

[Soulend]

No prob. Which definition of nihilism are you referring to, Cody?

[Cody]

Originally posted by Soulend
No prob. Which definition of nihilism are you referring to, Cody?

Aww man, you have to ask all the hard questions and spoil the fun

I have in mind the definition of skepticism over/ rejection of values, existance, and morality.

I think samurai is an interesting case, because they had to adhere to a strict and unquestionable (to them) moral code, and at the same time they had to reject the importance of life (or do they?).

Contemporary nihilists don't see death as a big deal because they believe nothing matters; that seem to parallel some of budo principles (mushin, nothingness, etc), but samurai disregard for death seems to be more of a necessity to conform to their culture/ ritual.

So I am curious as to how contemporary budoka make sense of traditional samurai practice and the bushido code.

-Cody

P.S. That said, I think all contemporary definitions of Nihilism are related, so take whichever definition you will and go nuts.

Okay, off topic question, but Cody, have you ever read "Fight Club" (Yes, it was a book before the movie)? If so, you would you consider Tyler Durdin(sic.) a nihilist? That being asked, can you see the advantages of a nihilist philosophy when studying any art?

[captnigh]

I don't think samurai were nihilist. No matter what definition you use, it doesn't apply to feudal Japanese culture. Nihilism rejects social standards and belief systems, samurai strove to preserve them. It also undermines authority, whereas the samurai culture was built on the precepts of loyalty to one's military leaders. The one concept that nihilism and bushido share however, is disregard for life and limb. Life was meant for death. In nihilism, they also transfer this concept to morality and basic human values, making them worthless. This is where the similarity ends. So I guess they share a rare quality, but are completely different in most other respects.

[Cody]

Originally posted by G. Zepeda
Okay, off topic question, but Cody, have you ever read "Fight Club" (Yes, it was a book before the movie)? If so, you would you consider Tyler Durdin(sic.) a nihilist? That being asked, can you see the advantages of a nihilist philosophy when studying any art?

Unfortunatelly, I have neither saw the movie nor read the book. Tell me about Tyler?

I see advantages of coming to term with the issue of death. In that sense, any believe that helps you be prepared is advantages in martial arts/ combative studies. But I don't see a nihilistic approach as more advatageous than other believes, though I think it's probably one of the closest to Zen.

regards,
-Cody

Tyler was into mayhem and mischief, upending the current system of beliefs to the extreme of facism. Different, I would say than Tergenev's character in that the depth to which Tyler goes into nihilism and violence. So much so, that a neo-facism sort of develops, the author's statement, I think, on unchecked male hormones coupled with severe alienation.

If you haven't read Turgenev's, "Father and Sons", I would suggest it for further reading on Nihilism and it's development into a sort of philosophy of the young mind.

Are founders of various martial arts nihilists? Bruce Lee?

[cguzik]

Originally posted by Cody:

But I don't see a nihilistic approach as more advatageous than other believes, though I think it's probably one of the closest to Zen.

Zen and nihilism are worlds apart. One of the most significant points of Zen is that sentient beings exist. Another is that suffering matters. ...Definitely not nihilistic.

Best,

Chris

[Cody]

Originally posted by cguzik
Originally posted by Cody:


Zen and nihilism are worlds apart. One of the most significant points of Zen is that sentient beings exist. Another is that suffering matters. ...Definitely not nihilistic.

Best,

Chris

Yes, but don't forget the non-duality principality in Zen. Love and hate is one and the same; sentient beings exist and non-exist at the same time. Suffering matters, and do not matter, at the end.

Sounds pretty nihilistic to me.

-Cody

[Cody]

Originally posted by G. Zepeda
Tyler was into mayhem and mischief, upending the current system of beliefs to the extreme of facism. Different, I would say than Tergenev's character in that the depth to which Tyler goes into nihilism and violence. So much so, that a neo-facism sort of develops, the author's statement, I think, on unchecked male hormones coupled with severe alienation.

If you haven't read Turgenev's, "Father and Sons", I would suggest it for further reading on Nihilism and it's development into a sort of philosophy of the young mind.

Are founders of various martial arts nihilists? Bruce Lee?

Disregard for authority and conventions are definitely signs of nihilism, but I also think it is anti-nihilistic to go out of your way to rebell against them. IMHO, a true nihilist will not make any effort to conform to societal expectations/ conventions, but he wouldn't recognize their importance by confronting them either.

I don't personally consider Bruce Lee a nihilist; he is very driven, there are cultural stereotypes that he worked very hard to break, there are societal conventions that he was not happy with, but he very much aspired for recognition and "success" within his society, within his time.

-Cody

If nothing matters at all to any true nihilist, then they would neither eat nor sleep. Even the unabomber had a ramshackle hut. When Tyler Dirdin(sic.) starts fight club, he is the only member...fighting himself. Others watching, want to join in. There is an inviting part of any nihilist, to take part in the nihilism itself...Yes, a sort of Zen in total destruction of all value and perception.
There was a "story" about a guy in India that had neither eaten or drank anything for years(if you beleive stories). A true nihilist turns his nose up at even biology!
It's MHO that the nihilist LIVES for confrontation of the societal values and norms. A la punk rock, teenage wasteland values, etc.
Nihilism is a rather immature POV, and it's integrity flounders upon itself like so much a teenage boy with oversized shoes. Hence, the development of facism so easily inside the philosophy.

So, I am curious, Cody, who would you consider to be a nihilist?

Tyler Durden was the epitome of a Nihilist. It's a shame we don't have more Tyler Durdens in the world (even if he did have his flaws).

Getting back on topic... Samurai =/= Nihilists. Although I suppose such a combination is possible. In fact, if you consider the idea of a "Christian Samurai" valid, then a Nihilist version would not be such a stretch.

[Cody]

Originally posted by G. Zepeda
So, I am curious, Cody, who would you consider to be a nihilist?

To be honest, I don't know one complete nihilist. I know a lot of people that are nihilistic, but not complete nihilist. But this isn't exactly a fair question, I don't think it is possible for an internationally famous enough person (for both of us to recognize him anyway) to be a nihilist.

I don't know if I agree that true nihilist would really make an effort to go against instinct and starve himself either. Somehow that's not really in my definition. It takes too much deliberate efforts to fight your own instincts.

I agree with you that in the end, most people who almost live up to being a nihilist do have an agenda on their back: something they are trying to protest, or a point they are trying to make. And at the end, they inevitably die bad. Are they immature? Mmmmmm...m'aybe. But for whatever reason, I find them beautiful. It's nice to see people who almost succeed in escaping society's agenda.

-Cody