Aikijujutsu vs Jujutsu - what is the difference?

Sczcepan..bud,

You posted this?

"That would be first traditional jujutsu or aikijutsu dojo with sparring in the world. Worth to check it out"

Has anyone ever told you that you don't know what you're talking about? If not, I'm here to pass on the bad news to you.

Now its true many traditional jujutsu and aiki schools don't teach freestyle until a very advanced level. ( a mistake in my opinion but heck, I'm an old Judoka. ) but almost all traditional jujutsu schools I'm familiar with do have some form of freestyle training to develop spontaneous execution of technique. The fact that you say they don't just highlights your lack of experience and questionable qualifications to comment on the subject.

I believe Araki ryu, Takenouchi ryu, Yanagi ryu, Fusen ryu, Kito ryu, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu and Tenjin Shinyo ryu all practise various forms of freestyle training. There's probably a great deal of others that I am not familiar with.

FYI, Semi pro boxer and kickboxer Dave Slocum also of the Yanagi ryu used to mix it up with Don Angier on a regular basis when I visited there in the early 1980's. It looked like David and Goliath!

BJ

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Szczepan,

Do you have any more short bus wit or wisdom you care to share?

mark

[Becky Sheetz]

I agree, Glenn, your attitude is very refreshing. Kudos! Let me begin by qualifying my response to your question about the difference between jujitsu and ajj by saying, I have never seen good non-ajj jujitsu practiced, at least not by my definition of really being able to control a larger opponent. That's not to say it doesn't exist, of course, so my opinion will be scewed based on my first-hand observations.

Aiki-jujitsu employes aiki, as does aikido. Let's start here, as you are familiar with it. Basically, people will put forth many theorums and philosophical treatises as to the relationship between aikido and ajj. My EXPERIENCE has been that, typically, ajj is far less contingent upon a compliant opponent/partner than aikido and the intensity of the locks is quite often more severe. Again, as to my experience, my sempai recently had wrist surgery to repair some severely torn cartilage. My sensei has had both of his wrists broken. A very senior sensei I train with had his wrist broken in sankjo by his instructor while training in Japan. That's what I mean by intensity of locks. Again, to make a gross, blanket statement, this is not common in the aikido I've seen and felt. As a result, this intensity coupled with greater compliance naturally leads to greater control of an assailant out in the world.

As to the ajj/jujitsu difference, this is somewhat abstract, but you'll generally find these to be true. In no real order:

1. Coordination of upper and lower body in movement. I've heard it said about one blend of, let's us the convention of rjj for regular jujitsu, that students are to focus on the hands because jujitsu is all in the hands. Ajj, like aikido, surely is not and after 6 months I'm sure you have an appreciation for this and for what happens when you move your upper body first or lower body first when trying to move an opponent: nothing!

2. Deadweighting and movement. The use of moving into and around an attacker and, when locking or throwing, deadweighting to fully apply the locks and to break his balance are themes of ajj

3. Circular movement. I've never seen tenkan done by rjj, for example. Nor circular blocks. . .

4. Breaking balance. These elements of breaking your opponent's kuzushi by moving into him or around him and unbalancing him are of the ajj variety.

5. Muscle versus technique. Again, a gross generalization and one that I'm sure a rjj proponent will be quick to correct me on, I've seen common techniques like shoulder, hip and other throws done by jerking and muscling the opponent rather than BLENDING with him. This is a great approach if you are a body builder. But I'm 5'6" and I've learned that it's technique or bust.

6. Blending. Ajj is about using your opponent's ki and blending with him, not about attrition of inflicting your own ki on him. The latter is more of a karate philosophy as well as the muscle versus technique I mentioned above.

This is just a quick overview of what comes to my mind first. Surely others can add more. Now, you will surely find rjj that employ some of these themes, but the QUALITY of the application of these themes is key. I've heard one very senior rjj practitioner whose name 90% of you would know talk about breaking an opponent's balance, but from watching him on the mat, I did not get the impression he really understood execution and what that mean off of paper, so to speak.

I hope you will find this instructive and will not think that I've sounded like a know-it-all. I've only shared with you what I do know in hopes of answering your question. Frankly, I resent the somewhat elitist attitude that I've experienced from those who profess great wisdom than they possess.

A question for you, Glenn: Where do you live?

[Cady Goldfield]

Becky,
Good AJJ uses no jerking or muscling at all. It is completely relaxed, and very soft.

[Ron Tisdale]

Again, as to my experience, my sempai recently had wrist surgery to repair some severely torn cartilage. My sensei has had both of his wrists broken. A very senior sensei I train with had his wrist broken in sankjo by his instructor while training in Japan. That's what I mean by intensity of locks.

Does this strike anyone else as simply a lack of control? Either that, or very bad ukemi?

RT

[Cady Goldfield]

That's what I was thinking, Ron.
In my experience, complete control can be gained and kept over another without causing joint damage... It can even be done without causing pain - although pain can very easily be added if desired (it is not needed, though, as the opponent is unable to move).

A system that depends on pain and damage to be effective, has some inherent flaws, IMO. Don't get me wrong -- pain and damage can be very useful in combat methodology; they just should not be necessary to make aikijujutsu locks work.

[chrismoses]

Becky, I find many of your comments to be overgeneralizations. There are some excellent jujutsu schools out there and there are some equally crappy "aikijujutsu" schools. Remember all these naming conventions are pretty new. Jujutsu was one of the catch all terms for fighting with your hands (in general).

If you ever get a chance to check out Toby Treadgill or any of his students from Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu, you might be surprised how "aiki" he and his students movements can be. If Toby's out there, hope you didn't take that as an insult.

A lot of what people are calling Aikijujutsu these days is either Jujutsu/judo wearing a hakama or Aikido with lots of injuries. I don't think either is a very accurate representation of the real stuff. Hell, even Prof. Ron has an "Ayee-key jujitsu" video series out...

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Becky,
Good AJJ uses no jerking or muscling at all. It is completely relaxed, and very soft.

That seems, from my reading of her post, to be what she was trying to say. . .

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Dale Seago
That seems, from my reading of her post, to be what she was trying to say. . .

Oops! You're right, Dale. I misread #5 and thought she was saying the opposite.

Ah well, it's Friday. Time for a glass of sake to add to the brain muddle.

[Becky Sheetz]

"Does this strike anyone else as simply a lack of control? Either that, or very bad ukemi?"

I'd say the same thing if I didn't know each situation. I'm not bragging. I've never hurt anyone due to lack of control nor have any of my teachers. Sure, you get a hyperextension here or there, but sometimes those just happen. But each case was a lock applied well--too well, but that's not the point of my post. I'm unclear on why you chose to focus on what you perceive as the negative in my post instead of helping to address the gentleman's question. I think this is a great forum, but get disconcerted with the negativity that sometimes runs along the undercurrent.

Christian, if these jujitsu folks you are speaking of are using aiki, isn't it aiki-jujitsu then? Maybe I need a definition explained to me. . . Again, I'm posting based on my experience, and I'm sure others have experiences that are different. I did my level best to answer what I believed to be a well-intended question. Other perspectives are welcome, I'm sure.

Dale, thanks for coming to bat for me, sir.

[Dale Seago]

Becky,

Just on the face of it, Ron Tisdale would seem to have a valid point. On the other hand, I realize these things can sometimes "go bad" on you before you can do anything about it and the technique ends up actually doing what it was designed to do. Your further explanation is helpful.

Christian, if these jujitsu folks you are speaking of are using aiki, isn't it aiki-jujitsu then? Maybe I need a definition explained to me. . . Again, I'm posting based on my experience, and I'm sure others have experiences that are different.

Well, maybe in a techical sense, but the ryuha may not call itself that. For example, in the Takagi Yoshin ryu jutaijutsu which Masaaki Hatsumi teaches, there's far more "aiki" than in most aikido I've seen, but I haven't really heard the term used when training in it in Japan.

As an aside, did you get any of those books on executive protection from ASIS I recommended? If you're still thinking about getting into that line of work, you might want to consider the fact that one of my company's protection teams was ambushed last weekend in Iraq. We did all the right things and fought through, but still lost two agents KIA.

[Cady Goldfield]

Becky,
One of the inherent flaws of the Internet, is that it limits users to verbalizations. There are some things that can only be communicated by demonstration in person, as I'm sure you realize.

Your aikijujutsu may not be my aikijujutsu, may not be someone else's aikijujutsu. We can never know what those differences are without being on the mats together. So, while we may do our best to verbalize our experiences, there is no way we can accurately convey those experiences in this medium.

Using a loaded term like "aikijujutsu" opens a whole can of confusion, because there are so many interpretations of what "aiki" is, and so few actual authentic lineages of what is generally accepted to be authentic aikijujutsu.

These forums are a poor medium for a subject that needs physical expression.

As for effectiveness as indicated by damage, good jujutsu alone is effective because of the way in which it manipulates and sets up joints for potential damage. The key in training, though, is to stop short of that damage. To go beyond is careless, irresponsible and shows a lack of control and focus, IMO.

Sure -- accidents happen on the mats. Sometimes uke fails to take a breakfall properly or at the right time; other times, tori miscalculates his movements and goes too far in a lock. It doesn't take much to cause damage, whether you're doing p/k or grappling arts. The question is, does the practitioner have the presence of mind to control his power?

[Carlos Estrella]

Originally posted by chrismoses
Hell, even Prof. Ron has an "Ayee-key jujitsu" video series out...

You haven't truly LIVED unless you've seen it in person - when I was in high school two decades ago I saw him at the Empire State Nationals doing what I am sure HE thought looked cool. It may have even been effective (to be sure, I would've been bewildered enough to pause long enough for his techniques to actually WORK on me!).

FWIW

Carlos

[Carlos Estrella]

My original jujutsu teacher is in your neck of the woods and he introduced me to Daito Ryu years ago. Although a true beginner here, I have been involved with martial arts in one for or another since the late 70's and have developed some opinions that may be relevant... the Daito Ryu I saw was from what is considered a more "esoteric" school I believe, yet it was definitely effective. I was locked in ways that I can't BEGIN to describe when it comes to the pain, yet my wrists and arms and back and legs, etc. were all ok (except for the usual pain when receiving those locks). NO ONE however, except maybe some of the "experts" from other styles that were at the seminars I went to, showed any lack of restraint or malice, and we all LEARNED!

If the "aiki" you are experiencing requires a call to 911 afterwards (and u r NOT a mugger <g>), then RUN, don't walk, to another school.

FWIW,

Carlos

[Cady Goldfield]

What Carlos said.

The pain is exquisite. The kind that induces what I like to call, "The Primal Scream" -- it comes straight from the limbic part of the brain, and you swear it's coming from someone else until you realize that everyone is looking at you...

And yet, as soon as the lock is released, the pain is gone. And, there is no damage. Your body releases endorphins, and you walk away feeling better than you did before.

But many of the techniques work without causing pain at all; you can cause pain, but that is not what makes the technique work. It's the mechanical lineup and your subtle internal controlings that make it work.

Some techniques cause pain as a byproduct and you can't help it -- it's just part and parcel of the technique. But the pain is, again, just a byproduct; it's not what is making the technique work.

And, some techniques - kumi uchi particularly - is meant to break spines, rip out shoulders, lethally concuss heads. Do you really want to carry those to fruition in the dojo? There is no room for carelessness. You never perform these methods to fruition. Getting there - the kuzushi, the setup - and taking it right to the edge... where just a fraction more would be lethal... that's plenty and enough.