Aikijujutsu vs Jujutsu - what is the difference?

[chrismoses]

The term Aiki has been used by various schools of armed and unarmed combat. It's use as a *type* of art seems to have been popularized by Ueshiba Sensei at the suggestion of Onisaburo Deguchi, his spiritual advisor. This makes it a relatively new classification. Daito Ryu adopted the term Aiki after Ueshiba Sensei, apparently Takeda Sensei felt the term was appropriate. I'm not sure what the history is of the Yanagi Ryu's naming, I would suppose that it was initially simply called Yanagi Ryu and the art type was added on later for clarification. Rich, Johnny, any comments?

For me the difference between the Jujutsu I have felt and the Aikijujutsu (and for that matter good Aikido) is "the hole". In a good jujutsu throw, as uke I feel good and dealt with, and I have a pretty good idea of what just happened. In really good Aiki waza, there's always the sensation of falling into "the hole". Hopefully that concept is clear to others out there. I used to attribute that sensation to more moralistic/spiritual explanations, but due to certain, er, training opportunities over the last year, I've certainly come to think of that sensation more in mechanical terms. For me, that's really the only discernable difference, and I would argue that any good Jujutsu has aspects of Aiki and that any good Aiki has aspects of Jujutsu. I see them more in analogue terms rather than digital (ie: turn the dial from go-ju-aiki rather than hit a button with no grey area between the paradigms of movement). There, clear as mud...

Finally, Toby's school does not use the term aiki per se, although some of their techniques are referred to as myojutsu (mysterious techniques) and look and feel very much like what is often called aikijutsu.

Thanks in advance for corrections and clarifications, I try to get my facts straight before posting, but you know how it is...

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Becky,

No negativity inteneded. Your post left a certain impression, and I asked others if they had the same impression. Apparently at least a few did. Thanks for your clarifications though. I recently had a conversation in the aikido section of this board that someone could interpret in much the same way as I interpreted your comments. So its not like I'm picking on you...just calling them as I see them. The trick is not to take it personally.

Take care,
Ron

[Cady Goldfield]

Ditto what Ron said!

Sorry to not have gotten back to my post sooner, but I have been taking in all that has taken place, and happy to see the responses that all of you have posted in my regards.

One of the reasons that I posted my original question of the differences between AJJ and Jujutsu, is the fact that I have been wondering about counter attacts against kicking. What does one do then? Does AJJ or Daito Ryu have defence against kicking? Is there a MA that uses the Aiki for strikes like Aikido, covers grappling and groundwork like Judo, and learns to defend against feet, and if so is it Aiki?

And Becky, I live an hour out of Vancouver BC. I may be doing some traveling ther in the future for some training. My arm is getting better slowly, but I will have to give it a month or so after it feels 100%.

[Cady Goldfield]

Glenn,
I can't speak for gendai jujutsu, as I haven't a background in it, but traditional and classical/koryu jujutsu are famous for counters to kicking. Keep in mind that anything you can do to lock a striking or punching arm, you can do to a kicking leg, with very effective and powerful results. Aikijujutsu, provided it's the real thing (i.e. from a classical/koryu system) is jujutsu with aiki. In that respect, it uses the same vectors as jujutsu, but is powered by the additional "perks" that aiki offers.

I came to these arts from a long background in karate and early taekwondo (which was karate), and so am an experienced kicker, puncher and striker. Knowing (through legs-on and hands-on experience)what I know now, I would never try to kick a jujutsuka/aikijujutsuka without a very good strategic setup!

[Ron Tisdale]

Daito ryu and Aikido both deal with kicks well, in my opinion. The kicks that are most problematic are the same ones that cause problems for any other style; low, stomping kicks, thai kicks to the large muscles on the legs, knees (if you include them as kicks) during close in grappling.

For aikido, if you presume entering correctly (never presume), kicks aren't really much of an issue as far as which technique to use. I see the styles that disregard blocking / parrying as having the most problem here. For someone who uses kicking as a pre-emble to hand techniques, your maai turns out to be a little closer to a weapons maai. These long range kickers are not too difficult to handle if you are used to entering with both x-step and shuffle-step movements.

People who set up their kicks with punches, moving comfortably in and out of both ranges are much harder to deal with in my experience. Here, an ability to parry, use passing blocks, and atemi (all found in some styles of aikido), comes in very handy.

The biggest problem is fighters who like close in standing grappling (thai boxers esp.). They don't mind getting hit, they use knees and short stomping kicks as well as traditional thai kicks, and if they are able to tie you up, you're toast. So you have to get to the safe spot, get them to turn into or away from you, and use that momentum to work your technique from there.

The bottom line is, enter, ushiro nage, irminage, sokomen iriminage, make them turn into you with elbows or strikes, and use those handles for your other techniques. I'll let someone with more experience in Daito ryu speak to that if they wish.

Ron (all this is just in my experience only...find a good fighter to train with and test, test, test)

[Nathan Scott]

Again, as to my experience, my sempai recently had wrist surgery to repair some severely torn cartilage. My sensei has had both of his wrists broken.

Sounds like "East Coast Style"!

Welcome to the forum,

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Sounds like "East Coast Style"!

Yer a bad boy, Nathan.

[Nathan Scott]

Yuck yuck yuck...

Hey, you know I'm not talking about you guys specifically. I basically just wanted to get subscribed to the thread but haven't had time to read all four pages of this word-for-word yet!

[Becky Sheetz]

Thanks to you all for your responses from what I admit may have been a defensive post (from me) at the outset. I really can't comment on my one instructor's wrist being broken in Japan. He did not elaborate except to say that his teacher was demonstrating a technique, broke it and then told him it would heal. Was it intentional? I don't know. As for my sempai, he had repeated injuries to his wrist, even under VERY controlled situations and locks. Upon examination, doctors learned that his bone structure in his wrist is highly abnormal and makes nikyo not such a good idea for him to take. We know that now, but didn't know it any of the times he was injured. We thought it was a bad sprain, and that's what they said when he went to the emergency room. This has taught us all to treat large, otherwise inactive people very gingerly, however, until we understand their bodies better. I'm sorry if I puffed up my feathers and insulted/mislead anyone.

Dale, I have not made the information you sent me a priority at this point, but do plan to look into it in the future. I'm sorry for the loss to your group and truly hope you, your wife and your colleages will remain safe.

Chrismoses, are you refering to the disillusionment of of aiki related throws when you refer to "falling into the hole?"

[Andrew]

Hey Cady,
How were the hollidays? Whats everyone been up to? Where has Dan been? I have not herd from him in a while. Maybe its the East Coast training. Well having fun in the sun. Wish everyone was here. drop a line any time.

[Cady Goldfield]

Hey Andy!
Nice to hear from another one o' them brutal East Coasters.

The weather has been nasty cold. We broke records in orcester and Boston. Soak up the balmy Cuban breezes while you can.
You should just call Dan. He is too swamped to read e-mail or E-Budo lately. I'll let him know you've been dropping by E-Budo occasionally.

Please don't break anyone's wrists or dislocate any shoulders down there. We need all our troops.

[chrismoses]

'Chrismoses, are you refering to the disillusionment of of aiki related throws when you refer to "falling into the hole?"'
-Becky

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, are you asking if I'm disinchanted with Aiki throws or that I've seen through the illusion typically built up around the mechanical explanations of Aiki throws?

(Genuinely not trying to be difficult here, just didn't want to answer and have to retract my statement after further clarification.)

;-)

[Becky Sheetz]

Oh, what I meant was were you describing the method of, as uke, being unbalancing and disorienting as the sensation of falling into the hole? I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I'd like to understand it better. Thanks in advance.

[ChrisMoon]

Originally posted by szczepan
Sooooo both of you are saing that Traditional Jujutsu or Aiki-jujutsu have sparrings? Do you practice sparring on regular basic? What are rules? Are there juges?
I'm sorry, I didn't know that.
I would like to know, that is a name of school that practices those sparrings, and if one can observe it?

ps. instructor with sparring background, but who teachs in traditional way, doesn't count, of course.
I undestand that in your dojo ppl with no sparring history spar, do they?

Szczepan seems like you might already have your mind made up but Takenouchi Ryu does have sparring. I am willing to bet it is not the only one, it is just the one I have experience with so far.