Aikijujutsu vs Jujutsu - what is the difference?

[Steve Delaney]

Tenjin Shinyo ryu also contains sparring in it's syllabus. FYI

Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Does this strike anyone else as simply a lack of control? Either that, or very bad ukemi?

RT

Actually, when I studied a ajj in Japan, being an outsider, I was intentionally damaged by senior shihan to the point of needing medical attention. This goes on not through lack of skill but application of it.

Sebago Suazo

[Becky Sheetz]

gnu2thisplanet, what was your response? Did you quit? Heal and go on? Find another dojo? Just curious . . .

[don]

Originally posted by gnu2thisplanet
Actually, when I studied a ajj in Japan, being an outsider, I was intentionally damaged by senior shihan to the point of needing medical attention.

Who were you studying with?

[chrismoses]

"Actually, when I studied a ajj in Japan, being an outsider, I was intentionally damaged by senior shihan to the point of needing medical attention. This goes on not through lack of skill but application of it."
-Sebago Suazo

I'd say that was an excellent example that a__-holes are everywhere, not just stateside...

[Nathan Scott]

Getting jacked up in the dojo on a regular basis is not a sign of "skill", it is a sign of ego and/or inexperience. In fact, it takes far more skill to perform budo techniques on an opponent without injuring them that it does to simply jack them up. Injuring someone is easy.

The dojo is not for injuring others - this is reserved for "bad guys". Your partners are your classmates, and even if you are the "teacher", you're all learning together and cannot do so without each other. There is an implied trust when performing techniques on each other that shite will do their best to perform techniques to their aite at a level that is just short of causing serious injury. A lot of taijutsu techniques are explained by various teachers as being "breaking methods" in reality. While this may be the case, these breaking methods also have training variations or basic versions that can be performed without great danger of injury, and in many cases, these variants are controls or throws of some type that are still reasonably effective or at least motivating.

In my own dojo, we sometimes train at increasingly intense levels. Rarely, a member might mis-judge a block or movement and get clocked in the melon. One of my students in fact split the corner of his eyebrow this way, and needed a few stiches. While this type of injury is very rare, to me at least, it falls within an acceptable risk level for intermediate/advanced level students training seriously. Getting your bones broken/dislocated however is really the sign of negligence, or, of a training session that has gotten too intense.

Though traditional dojo tend to not make a big deal over injuries, this dojo in Japan sounds as though it should be avoided. Trashing students is not "cool" or skillful.

The dojo is not for injuring others - this is reserved for "bad guys". Your partners are your classmates, and even if you are the "teacher", you're all learning together and cannot do so without each other. There is an implied trust when performing techniques on each other that shite will do their best to perform techniques to their aite at a level that is just short of causing serious injury

Thank God for that. IF it weren't true, after forty years of making that many enemies, the last twenty would have been spent in a cave somewhere, playing randori with a tengu or something, I'm sure I would have thought was real by now.

I don't think I have trained at any dojo doing any thing that didn't have some form of randori/sparring/freestyle, or anything else one wishes to call it, but some want to show off by showing just how much pain they can inflict. Screaming loudly should be notice that if one goes any further your friend will become your enemy.

Taryu jiai does have a long record, going back a long way, even the full-bore safe kind has a long history. Effective technique to the loser was probably of more value simply because the loser found something better than what he brought to the game.

Jikishin-ryu, a precursor to kito-ryu had a form of freestyle or 'ran' as early as the late 18th century and even called the style Judo (or more probably jiu no michi). Still, whether you wish to call it modern or otherwise, most does have early roots, and I'm sure a few "discussions" broke out well before the Internet and CyberSpace.

Thankfully, most "discussions" ended sometime in Meiji or we would be arguing over painful dentistry or something equally exquisite in delivering pain.


Mark F.

Hello Again,

I was delayed in posting because of technical difficulties.

Those were interesting responses to my post.

Regarding who I was training with? I must say that since none of them are public figures, it would certainly be a breach of etiquette to discuss them in a public forum. But If I had, they would now be known as A-holes teaching in a dojo that is to be avoided.

In the old days when I used to read a lot of martial arts books I found a number of references to the severe greetings that gaijin students could expect when visiting traditional dojo.

For me the really interesting question is how did I handle it? Bandages, accupunture, and the knowlegde that it couldn't go on forever. I look back on it now as a rite of passage. At the time I would have begged to have it stop if I thought that would have helped.

cheers

Sebago Suazo

[Joseph Svinth]

You know what Leopold von Sacher-Masoch said: "Whoever allows himself to be whipped, deserves to be whipped."

Andy
I sent you two replies toyour private email and when you reply its as if you didnlt read them-sort of like starting fresh.
Did the military censor them or something?
Good to hear yer showing the boys who want to bang with lug like you what "old style" can do.
remember to play nice.
I'll try firing off another one with my real email address. I am working instead of going to church today(Kate went up me one side then the other..ain't ever gonna teach HER jujutsu)
When you coming home? How is the family?
Glad to see you avoided this nonsense here. As Nathan has reminded us no one here should be discussing anything about anything till we're all menkyo-which none of us will ever be so.............
become Japanese and get one in six to fifteen years and be anywhere from excellent to just an embaressment.


I have a question or two
What is Aiki?
What works?....really
How does one know, how would one know.
Can you bang with it?
Then you're only guessing about it-and-you.
I have met VERY few who can answer that to my satisfaction.

Dan

I tried to go back and delete my entire post as I promised myself I would never post here again. I forgot E-budo's time limit.
Andy don't respond here-just email me.

Have fun
Dan

[John Lindsey]

I tried to go back and delete my entire post as I promised myself I would never post here again.

Bye Dan.

[gravity121]

Hi guys,

I have been looking through a lot of threads and forums and either haven't found the answers or the thread that gives the answers. Can any tell me the difference between

jujutsu
aikijujutsu
aikijitsu

also can anyone tell me the meaning of the names. ie, taekwondo the way of the hand and the foot.

Thanks

[No1'sShowMonkey]

This is a pretty well discussed topic on here, actually.

If any of you more experienced / learned types on here read this and find error or weakness, please fix my mistakes and give me a good thrashing.

This thread and this thread over at Budoseek contain frank discussion about the central issues of aikijujutsu. There are probably other really very good ones, but I appreciate this thread's straight forwardness. Also, a good deal of the posters are coming directly from Aikijujutsu lineages (but also, several of the key posters are distinctly NOT aikijujutsu practitioners. gotta love objective argumentation.) and can speak in an educated fashion about the subject matter.

In short:

Jujutsu - The Art or Study Of (Jutsu) Pliancy, Flexibility, Gentleness (Ju). Jujutsu can be subdivided many times on many criteria. Several of the key subdivisions are:

1) Koryu Jujutsu. "Koryu" refers to 'classical' martial arts - a much debated topic that implies a creation of pedagogy before the end if the Meiji era and the end of the samurai class. Koryu jujutsu is often sogobudo, meaning that it has large amounts of armed techniques - this is because koryu jujutsu comes from a time when Japan was a weaponized society and often jujutsu had its genesis in battlefield techniques.

2) Goshin / Gendia Jujutsu - Goshin translates as 'self defense', roughly. Gendia translates as 'new' or 'contemporary'(?).

a - Goshinjutsu is the art or techniques of self defense and is a 'defanged' version of koryujujutsu based largely off of the evolutionary development of Judo by Jigoro Kano during the late 19th and early 20th century. Most modern goshinjutsu are 'Gendai Budo' - see below.

b - Gendai jujutsu is a form of jujutsu with its nascent moment after the Meiji Restoration. Depending on who you talk to, this can even include the much vaunted Daito Ryu. Other famous ryu include Hakko Ryu or Danzan Ryu. Even Aikido (though aikido is generally just referred to as 'gendai budo'). Generally these systems, being based in koryu, have 'koryu waza' - techniques that are directly linked to the old styles - mixed in with more modern applications, teaching or organizational methods.

Often times Gendai jujutsu are centered on a distinctly demilitarized teaching style as without the necessity of the Sengoku Jidai - the Warring States period of nearly uninterupted civil war in Japan - which was the raison d'etre for jujutsu, gendai arts are more 'civilian' as a result and tend to have a more humane philosophy that de-emphasizes the killing and instead emphasizes spiritual development or harmony. This is strikingly similar to the jutsu-do paradigm.

3) Juijitsu / Jujitsu - Though spelling is a strange demarcation, generally speaking the e-budo (and to a certain extent the martial arts community at large) consider these two spelling subdivisions to indicate one of two phenomenon - derivations of catch wrestling or other forms of "grabs 'em and beats 'em" styles of fighting that are currently popular in MMA and Brazilian Juijitsu as made popular by the Gracie family.

a - "Grabs 'em and beats 'em": Turn on WEC, UFC, WFC (Whatever Fighting Championship) and you will see tons of practitioners of this 'style'. Heavily adapted from shoot fighting, catch wrestling, sambo, judo and a few other things thrown in for spice, this kind of fighting is easily recognized.

b - Brazilian / Gracie Jujitsu - These guys are currently vogue throughout the world after taking the UFC by storm in the '90s. From what I understand, their style is based centrally around ground fighting and is a derivative of Judo / Kano Jujutsu style methods of throwing and joint locking; the 'ne waza' or ground fighting in Judo / Kano jujutsu in particular.

Aikijujutsu - The Art or Study of Pliant, Flexible, Gentle Harmonized Energy. That is a crappy definition that is a sloppy semi-direct translation. I hope that someone will step in and give me a good slapping and say 'this is what it really means, you dolt'.

As explained in the linked articles Aikijujutsu refers to a particular kind of martial art based around key lineages from the Aizu prefecture in Japan. These include (to the best of my knowledge) Yanagi ryu and Daito ryu. These are, as far as I know, the only accepted ryu of genuine aikijujutsu. I would trust the words of someone from that community first, however.

These arts are based around cultivation of certain martial skills in the practitioner to exploit momentary advantage in a sudden and seemingly fantastic way. There are tons of explanations as to the hows and whys of this very moment but This Particular Article, I felt, did a great deal to give me perspective on what/why aikijujutsu was - far more so than any cursory discussion before.

I believe that one of the more distinctive and interesting bits of Daito Ryu is the pedagogy contained therein... Which leads to the next section.

a - Aikijujutsu in the rougher form / Daito ryu jujutsu - Daito ryu includes several arms in its teaching. One of these is jujutsu a la Daito ryu. Famous practitioners include Morihei Ueshiba. From what I understand, this is an advanced form of jujutsu but is mechanically just jujutsu, though it does lay the groundwork for later study.

b - Aikijutsu - This term would refer to the 'aiki enlightened', advanced and sophisticated techniques of Daito ryu that employ aiki in open hand fighting. The use of aiki principles provides those moments of incredible ability from timing, sensitivity and extreme skill.

c - Aiki no waza - Aiki no waza translates as "aiki technique" in that these are the principles of aiki boiled down and taught to cultivate that particular method of sensitivity and timing in a student. Again, pedagogy is a core piece of understanding here: the student learns isolated, difficult to explain and understand skills through a very particular method of teaching a very particular thing.

Again, I must point out that this is just based off of my own reading and research - hardly exhaustive compared to the work done by many of the people here.

I leave the post to those of the boards to clarify, challenge and otherwise fix.

- Chris McGaw

Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
~ Ernest Hemmingway

[No1'sShowMonkey]

Oh and it is e-budo policy to post your full name with every post. You agreed to this when you signed up. Mods are pretty strict about this.

- Chris McGaw

Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
~ Ernest Hemmingway