KeNpo vs KeMpo

KeNpo vs. KeMpo

What are the differences?

[1] In history.
[2] In style.
[3] In MA doctrine – philosophy.

Appreciate the input.

Ed Barton

[Chuck.Gordon]

Aside from organizational rifts and lineages, there's not technically, not much diff. between the words keNpo' and keMpo, other than the way the word was romanized from Japanese.

KeMpo is probably a more correct (at least more contemporary) romanization.

Now, that aside, it looks to me like most organizations using the N variant are connected to or descended in some way from the Ed parker dynasty.

Folks using the M variant could come from a large handful of other backgrounds.

Kempo is a generic word used in budo to describe systems of striking; and some budo etymologists and historians would actually say kempo is a subset of jujutsu, which is often defined as a generic term for many un- or lightly-armed arts.

Most Kenpo in America comes through Parker, via his time in Hawaii under Chow, who was a student of (amongst others) Mitose. All quite controversial figures in their own rights.

Some Okinawan systems use the word kempo, and Mitose may or may not have had a connection with the Okinawan te arts.

Funakoshi used Dai Nihon Kempo to describe an early variation of the karate he taught, and I've seen some Goju Ryu folks use the term as well.

Looking at Japan proper, some systems of budo there incorporate subsets of kempo (Kashima Shinryu, for one) that probably have no connection with the Okinawan te arts a'tall.

Allegedly the arts taught by Chin Gempin were called kempo as well ...

Confusing? A bit, maybe. It's what comes of folks picking up generic terms and using them as proper names, I guess.

Chuck

[X_plosion]

AFAIK, The situation with the Mitose lineage was simply a matter of using romanization to identify who was teaching what.

It seems that Mitose used the name "Kempo Jujutsu" to describe his art generically. At least that's the title of his book. His style's proper name is Kosho (Old Pine tree) Ryu Kempo or something like that.

Later, when Chow began to make his own innovations to what he'd learned, he used the "N" instead of "M" for the name. He also used the "Karate" term to differentiate it from Mitose's teachings. Eventually, Chow's style would eventually become known as "Kara-Ho Kenpo Karate".

History then repeated itself, when Parker got separated from Chow because of relocation to the mainland. His teachings also evolved and became known as "Ed Parker's American Kenpo".

The phenomenon has repeated itself over and over again. It seems it mainly is a practicality in that lineage so as to sort out and easily identify what school/organization/style the person in question belongs to.

Perhaps other members could shed more light on this.

[Nathan Scott]

I'd love to see a bit more standardization on the romanizing of these two terms. As many of you may know, "kenpo" (using different kanji) can also mean "sword law/method", and is an alternate term for traditional swordsmanship. "Ken" (sword) has always been romanized with this spelling, so "kenpo" is the only logical romization that makes sense.

"Kempo" (fist law/method; different kanji) has been romanized with both spellings, but it would be great to see it just romanized as kempo to avoid confusion with sword arts. Romanization standards for Japanese changes from time to time (like "jiujitsu" to "jujutsu"), but since there is no dictionary standard for kenpo and kempo, it would be great to see a move towards standardization of spelling among users of the term.

I know this may not be addressing the specific question directly, but given the name of the thread thought I'd volunteer this point of view, FWIW.

Regards,

[Michael Bland]

The only people who care about this argument are non-Japanese speakers. The romanization is really irrelevant. M or N makes no difference since the original words do not use romanization to be written. The pronunciation is the same, and if you are talking about the same art, then the characters are likely the same unless someone got creative.

I wouldn't worry about it.

Kempo is the way Kenpo (Œ?–@) is pronounced. This strange phenomenon occurs because Japanese speakers place their tongues on the back of their teeth and close their lips when pronouncing this sound. The attempts to transliterate the different Japanese writing methods into English have caused many difficulties. Mitose's book where Kenpo was spelled Kempo was due to a printing error - later corrected. Okinawans use Kenpo, also. Master Oyata?fs instructor, Saikou Shihan(?Å?‚ Žt”Í) Shigeru Nakamura, spelled Kenpo correctly in his English transliterations. An early film taken in 1968, shows Master Oyata doing Kata in Kansas. A makeshift title spells Kenpo correctly at this time. Later, Master Oyata?fs students spelled the name as it is pronounced; due, to lack of familiarity with Japanese grammar. You won't find Kempo in Japanese/English kanji dictionaries. It is Kenpo or the more correct Kenpou. This is a subject only of interest to westerners and Japanese scholars. Hombu is really Honbu - same mumbling of the 'n'. Westerners can moan and gripe but they cannot claim they know Japanese grammer better than the Japanese themselves. Kenpo is the spelling educated people would use.
D'veed Natan

Thank you for your responses.

May I add an additional inquiry?

Are there any differences how they perform their techniques?

Thank you again for your responses.

Ed Barton

[Nathan Scott]

The only people who care about this argument are non-Japanese speakers. The romanization is really irrelevant.

Yes, that's pretty much the point. The romanized version of the Japanese language is not Japanese, or even for Japanese. It is for non-Japanese. Since most of us don't read, write or include kanji or kana in our writings, it is necessary for us to find clear and unique romanized spellings that indicate the intended Japanese language kanji.

I'm not sure why you would not be interested in being a part of standardizing terms such as this, as this benefits our field directly as non-Japanese martial artists.

[tsurashi shondo]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
Thank you for your responses.

May I add an additional inquiry?

Are there any differences how they perform their techniques?

Thank you again for your responses.

Ed Barton

Well, being that these are different arts, the techniques are of course different as well.
I will BROADLY generalise. All the arts called Kenpo/Kempo are fundamentally "striking" arts, though there are throwing and joint-locking techniques within many of these styles, to varying degrees.
The Okinawan/Japanese arts using the moniker are essentially like Karate, with what might be thought of as a distinct Chinese influence. Do a web search for "Chuan-fa".

The American systems (Kara-ho, Parker's American, Practical Kenpo-Karate, Tracy's Kenpo, Kanzen etc.) are all derived more or less from one or two teaching lineages in Hawaii in the last century. These systems tend
to emphasize multiple strikes in rapid succession, often finishing the opponent with a reaping or throwing/locking technique that often ends with a maiming elbow or neck break.(very agressive mindset)
These syles combine elements of Karate, Kung-fu, Jujutsu and Phiipino stick/knife fighting. Truly an eclectic American style.

Shorinji Kempo is a modern art founded in Japan, with the intent of recreating the spirit of the Chinese (Shorinji = Shoalin) temple styles, while promoting their art as a quasi-spiritual path for peace/universalism.
It still looks very much like a Japanese style,
with a neat combination of striking and throwing elements.
I repeat, these are very GENERAL descriptions,
and some of the facts (especially with the American styles) have been disputed for years.
Hope this helps, and If anyone can add to or better illuminate these desciptions, I'd appreciate that too.

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I'm not sure why you would not be interested in being a part of standardizing terms such as this, as this benefits our field directly as non-Japanese martial artists.

Nathan,
I am not against standardizing terms. They already are standardized. Kenpo's use in the Japanese sword arts is so small as to be almost non-existant. It's use in what we do is widely used. When you say Kenpo to a Japanese martial artist he does not think of the sword arts - he thinks of a Chinese based fighting art. If you look in the ODP listings, you will find all of the Kempo sites are listed under Kenpo - the search word Kempo taking you to the Kenpo listings. In Okinawa, Master Odo called it Ryukyu Hon Kenpo as does his son... Master Nakamura called it Okinawa Kenpo, as does his son... we have Ryukyu Kenpo... Oyata originally called it Ryukyu Kenpo... Jefferie's English/Japanese Japanese/English online dictionary calls it Kenpo. The list goes on. If Mel the cook on 'Alice' wants to call it Kempo. so be it. It, still doesn't make it right. Galileo said the Earth went around the sun. He was forced to recant by the powers that be. It didn't make him wrong and it didn't make them right. It made them look like fools at a later date when knowledge of the subject was more wide spread.

Originally posted by BULLDOG
Are there any differences how they perform their techniques?
Ed Barton

Ed,
There are many differences and variations in the way teachers stress what they are teaching. A style is, after all, merely the reflection of an instructor's personality and his knowledge (or lack thereof) of the subject matter he is attempting to instill in his students.

[Mekugi]

Just you wait 'til Kehoe gets here.

[Matt Wolfson]

Originally posted by dveed
Nathan,
I am not against standardizing terms. They already are standardized. Kenpo's use in the Japanese sword arts is so small as to be almost non-existant. It's use in what we do is widely used. When you say Kenpo to a Japanese martial artist he does not think of the sword arts - he thinks of a Chinese based fighting art. If you look in the ODP listings, you will find all of the Kempo sites are listed under Kenpo - the search word Kempo taking you to the Kenpo listings. In Okinawa, Master Odo called it Ryukyu Hon Kenpo as does his son... Master Nakamura called it Okinawa Kenpo, as does his son... we have Ryukyu Kenpo...

Hello,
Having practiced Odo's style for many years and have met and practiced with him personally, I would like to know what has happened to his organization? I always knew the style as Okinawan Kenpo and was under the impression that Odo was a student of Nakamura and was teaching Nakamuras style. The name Ryukyu Hon Kenpo is new to me. Could you explain this to me in more detail?
Matt

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Natan,

I'm not trying to argue as to the popularity of the two arts, or which ones should have the rights to the spelling based on first usage. I'm simply pointing out that there are two Japanese terms within the same field that are being spelled the same (kenpo), and a standard for differentiating the two terms does not currently exist.

Since martial arts terms usually do not appear in mainstream dictionaries, I'm suggesting we take it upon ourselves to select a standardized way to spell these terms using romaji that will be clear to the reader what they are talking about:

Araki-ryu kenpo
Taisha-ryu kenpo

If listing the names of ryu-ha, which is the fist art and which is the sword art? The term shouldn't require further clarification - it should be reasonably guessed from the context and spelling.

As I said, "ken" (sword) has always been romanized that way. "kem" (fist) has been romanized both ways. What is the problem? The sword art kenpo may not currently be well known in the west currently, but it was a term used quite a bit historically, and will surely become more well known as more research is published.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Feel free to romanize things how ever you want.

Regards,

[Mekugi]

Hmm...

Araki Ryu is the "Fist Law", Taisha ryu is the "Sword Law".

Did I get it right?

I back ya up on the "Sword Law", and it is used regularily!


-Russ

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Natan,

I'm not trying to argue as to the popularity of the two arts, or which ones should have the rights to the spelling based on first usage. I'm simply pointing out that there are two Japanese terms within the same field that are being spelled the same (kenpo), and a standard for differentiating the two terms does not currently exist.

Since martial arts terms usually do not appear in mainstream dictionaries, I'm suggesting we take it upon ourselves to select a standardized way to spell these terms using romaji that will be clear to the reader what they are talking about:

Araki-ryu kenpo
Taisha-ryu kenpo

If listing the names of ryu-ha, which is the fist art and which is the sword art? The term shouldn't require further clarification - it should be reasonably guessed from the context and spelling.

As I said, "ken" (sword) has always been romanized that way. "kem" (fist) has been romanized both ways. What is the problem? The sword art kenpo may not currently be well known in the west currently, but it was a term used quite a bit historically, and will surely become more well known as more research is published.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Feel free to romanize things how ever you want.

Regards,