bokken and kokyu

After hearing of the benefits of practicing 4000 or so sword cuts until "your muscles are so gone you can only follow the correct path" - I gave it a try. What I discovered was that the only way I could get the bokken up was to lift it straight up over my head perhaps at a 45 degree or so angle. This seems different to the way I've seen kenjutsu people cut as well as Aikido sensei's like Nishio and others. Is that just because there are many ways to properly lift and cut?
Another point that I have regarding where we stop our cut. In my previous school I was told to cut all the way through until the bokken is horizontal to the ground. In my current school I am told that this is incorrect - that the bokken point must be at about head height - the reason given is that if I open my right hand it forms a tegatana parallel to the ground.
Another difference at this school is that both hands are used to cut and lift. At my previous school we lifted with the right and cut with the left.
I'm pretty curious about these differences and my teacher at my current dojo can't explain to my satisfaction so I'd be interested to hear any comments here.

There are a multitude of ways to handle a sword. Some are more efficient than others. My Aikido training in sword gave me a very limited knowledge. I think this will vary depending on one's instructor as some put more emphasis on weapons in general. I have been studying Japanese swordsmanship now for a little while and my understanding of the sword has developed tremendously.

Cuts can be to the head (high), stomache (middle), or close to the groung (low) position. Your hands shouldn't be in a middle position if you are cutting head level. (This is according to the style of sword I am studying.) Both hands are used in cutting as well as when lifting the sword back to its "resting" position.

In regards to the multitude of cuts (suburi)the only time you should use muscle is when your sword reaches its impact point (target) and then when you stop the sword right after the cut is completed.

Hope this helps.

thanks for that Lyle. Some things to think about for me, I'm also thinking about joining a iaido school to help my understanding.
I forgot to mention another point for the title of my post which was that a teacher once told me that a kokyu throw is on the lift not on the cut. Kind of like an atemi. This kind of makes more sense to me when lifting in the manner that I've been doing.

[aikihazen]

Hi Greg,

The Bokken "cut" as taught by Nishio Shihan.

Shoman Cut...

1.Grasp firmly with the pinkie finger and thumb instead of the fore/index finger. This will allow to the tip to rest naturally with the tip of the blade pointed up at the end of your cut.

2.To start pivot/push your left wrist/hand slightly forward and your right wrist/hand slightly back causing the blade tip to move up to an almost vertical position before lifting the blade. This protects the nage and does not open him up to a tsuki or quick horizontal cut if he/she had lifted the blade straight up and also allows him/her to counter any attack. It also helps draw the Uke in.

3.Once the Blade is close to vertical raise the blade up in one motion to just slightly above the forehead. Break the wrists so that the blade rest slighly below the horizontal plane above and then cut pushing the blade forward in a circular motion avoiding hacking or cutting straight down. The blade will rest naturally with the tip up at the throat of the Uke if done correctly.

4. 70 to 80% of the cut is with the left hand while the right hand guides the cut.

I hope this helps. Namaste

William Hazen

[Zoli Elo]

Originally posted by Greg_simmons
After hearing of the benefits of practicing 4000 or so sword cuts until "your muscles are so gone you can only follow the correct path" - I gave it a try.

Where did you hear that? Anyway, I will give it a try tomorrow just for fun, as I am beat today.

Zoli Elo

[Zoli Elo]

Well I can preform that many (4,000) cuts. Not only does it take around an hour to do, it has made my arms feel like they have rowed 50 miles.

The exercise is either lost on me or I cut "true" for, from start to finish the cuts were about the same.

Zoli Elo

[Elmar]

Originally posted by Aikibu
...Break the wrists so that the blade rest slighly below the horizontal plane above ...

Doesn't this make the blade "dead"? but then, I have seen aikido sensei do very strange things with a sword, and if the idea is to improve your aikido, then the reality aspect of the sword isn't as much of an issue.

- elmar schmeisser

[aikihazen]

Originally posted by Elmar
Doesn't this make the blade "dead"? but then, I have seen aikido sensei do very strange things with a sword, and if the idea is to improve your aikido, then the reality aspect of the sword isn't as much of an issue.

- elmar schmeisser

Quite the opposite and it has everything to do with improving your Aikido and everything to do with proper cutting. A slight wrist snap is used in many activities to generate power. The key is to be both focused and relaxed as a Katana is more effective "slicing" as opposed to "hacking". Nishio Shihan's Iaido and Weapons work stand on thier own merit in comparison to other Sword Arts. I suggest you visit one of his Dojo's.



William Hazen

Hi Zoli,
I was suggested the 4000 cuts by a former sensei. Your cut may well be true - I'm pretty sure that mine is still on its way!

William, thanks for the good description of Nishio Sensei's technique. Sugano Sensei has taught us another way where the hands do not break and the left hand stays pretty much at the same angle to the bokken during the whole movement.

My primary interest is practicing sword technique in a manner than will complement my tai jutsu - I'm pretty interested in Nishio Sensei's technique(but we don't have an affiliated dojo down here in Australia), so my main teachers have been in the method of Saito Sensei and Sugano Sensei.

With so many differences in even just the first suburi it is hard to get a definitive say on which one is right, so I'm trying all the ones out I can for myself and will have to make up my own mind.

[Elmar]

Originally posted by Aikibu
Quite the opposite ... I suggest you visit one of his Dojo's....

I have had sword seminars from both Nishio and one of his seniors (Tazaki). I am comparing their sword to that of Tetsuzan Kuroda, from whom I also have instruction, and to the sword movements from the kendo kata, where the sword doesn't go back beyond 45 degree "back" inclination. Shinai suburi of course stretches waaaay beyond that, of course.

[aikihazen]

Originally posted by Elmar
I have had sword seminars from both Nishio and one of his seniors (Tazaki). I am comparing their sword to that of Tetsuzan Kuroda, from whom I also have instruction, and to the sword movements from the kendo kata, where the sword doesn't go back beyond 45 degree "back" inclination. Shinai suburi of course stretches waaaay beyond that, of course.

Tazaki Sensei was one of my first teachers and is the senior most student of Nishio Shihan in the U.S. Perhaps I did not explain the wrist break well enough. The break is very slight nothing more than a slight 2 or 3 degree relaxiation of the wrist. When cutting down it is done in a circular motion. The Ken's power is in slicing as opposed to hacking as more of the blade makes contact with the opponent.

As for the wrist break that too is circular. It is not so much the blade. If any of you notice how the Japanese wring the water out of a wet cloth that would be closer to what I mean. The wrist break inward towards each other slightly and then snap/move back to a rigid position during the cut.

William Hazen

[aikihazen]

Originally posted by Greg_simmons
Hi Zoli,
I was suggested the 4000 cuts by a former sensei. Your cut may well be true - I'm pretty sure that mine is still on its way!

William, thanks for the good description of Nishio Sensei's technique. Sugano Sensei has taught us another way where the hands do not break and the left hand stays pretty much at the same angle to the bokken during the whole movement.

My primary interest is practicing sword technique in a manner than will complement my tai jutsu - I'm pretty interested in Nishio Sensei's technique(but we don't have an affiliated dojo down here in Australia), so my main teachers have been in the method of Saito Sensei and Sugano Sensei.

With so many differences in even just the first suburi it is hard to get a definitive say on which one is right, so I'm trying all the ones out I can for myself and will have to make up my own mind.

Hi Greg,

They are all "right"....When you find a practice that you are comfortable with....Give it your all. I am hoping to move down to OZ one of these days and if I do I will look you up.

William Hazen

[asiawide]

'INCORRECT', that's the serious problem in aikiken(aikijo too..) IMHO. If you learn a body technique here and do it there, even though you do it wrong, you won't be heard 'INCORRECT' in most cases. Because it's mostly a matter of 'STYLE'.

However, in aikiken, I experienced that even the very basic foot position is different among styles. You must follow new style in new place.

For 4000 times cutting... I've used a pencil to write since I was 7 years old. I've written so many letters and it's uncountable. But I'm still suck at caligraphy.

Jaemin

ps. If I'm not mistaken, Saito sensei's aikiken and Nishio sensei's aikiken are the case that I mentioned.

[Etch]

Originally posted by asiawide
For 4000 times cutting... I've used a pencil to write since I was 7 years old. I've written so many letters and it's uncountable. But I'm still suck at caligraphy.

Jae Min,

I couldn't agree more. Practice makes perfect, and if the form is poor, then you'll end up with perfectly bad form. Whats wrong with just finding a form that just works for you? In the long run, it could prove not only ineffective, but physiologically damaging to the wrists and hands.

Best Regards,
Bernard "Etch" Echiverri