Marine Corps Martial Arts Training Program

[Neil Hawkins]

Here's a link to the official standards of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Training Program.

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/stds/docum...S/matp-its.pdf

Seems to follow FM 21-150 fairly closely, but there's some stuff that I would question from a CQC standpoint (too much BJJ), but if they're after a Martial Art/Self Defence system it doesn't look too bad, it's comprehensive and to the point, I'd like to see a training manual.

What do you think? Anybody seen it all yet?

Neil

[Joseph Svinth]

The interesting parts start around page 23 "tan belt."

If you know how to do all this under stress, you'd be qualified, no doubt about it. And if you have athletes, probably you could teach it in the time allocated. But with a platoon of spastics, I don't know.

Furthermore, training is in helmet, flak jacket, etc. Do they issue those to women Marines assigned to the Pentagon, helicopter mechanics, etc.? Also, are corpsmen assigned at platoon level? If not, then how do they conduct training to standard for all personnel?

Finally, time has to be allocated within the training schedule. Is this going to be the Corps' PT two days a week? If so, then probably it can work. If not, then when are folks supposed to get the time? (I assume they want to go home or to the slopchute once in awhile; that does help retention, after all.)

[Joseph Svinth]

Oh. Speaking of the USMC, November 10 represents the 225th anniversary of the Marine Corps. Strictly speaking, this is a historical myth, as the US did not have a military until the 1780s, and the ratification of the Constitution. But the folks date themselves to the recruiters at Tun Tavern, so hoist a tankard, Devil Dogs.

[William]

Thanks for posting the link, Neil. This is great stuff. This is the first time I've seen a comprehensive and intelligible combatives program done by any service. I think its a great starting point.

It says in the order that sustainment for most of these tasks is 12 months, meaning, I think, that once initial training is done, it doesn't need to be done again for a year. At least, that's how I read it. Of course, that's woefully inadequate. (Although it may mean that testing for proficiency only has to happen once a year, which is a different matter.) I would like to see how the Marines plan to implement this into daily training.

Also, they talk about 3 different MOS's related to martial arts. I'm curious if they mean primary MOS's, as in this will be their main job, or some sort of additional skill qualifier. Does the Marine Corps plan on having full-time martial arts teachers, or part-time teachers whose main responsibility is somewhere else?

Neil, do you know where I can find the order regarding the testing and certification of the teachers, that is referenced in this order? That would also be very interesting to read.

William Johnson

[Neil Hawkins]

I have recieved a copy of MCRP 3-02B (thanks Phil!) and after reading it I must say that I am impressed. Ordinarily I can find dozens of things in these manuals that I personally disagree with, mostly because of the way I was taught, in this case there is only one thing in the entire manual that made me cringe (of course there's quite a few things I would do slightly differently but nothing else I consider 'wrong'! ) That one however is in my opinion major, I'll describe it for you now...

Block for a Forward Thrust. To execute the block against a forward thrust, Marines— Bend at the waist, move the hips backward, and jump backward with both feet to move away from the attack. This action is known as "hollowing out."

Hollow out and block the attack with the arms bent and hands together on top of the attacking arm.

Overlap the hands slightly so one thumb is on top of the other hand’s index finger. The other thumb should be under the other hand’s index finger.

Unfortunately I can't seem to select the pictures otherwise I'd post them, but I'm sure you get the image, soldier bent forward at the waist (do this with a pack on and maintain balance!), hands palm down, catching the thrust with his thumbs. This is far from the most dangerous technique I have seen taught but it's up there.

Firstly, the thumb joint is weak, a powerful thrust will break the thumbs. The text does imply that it is actually the ridge hand that blocks, but try getting into that position. Your forearms have to be so close together to achieve it that you are exposing the underside of your forearms (the soft bit with all the arteries!) to the knife point. Secondly, this position is virtually impossible to move from. You are in front of the attacker, both your hands are commited, you are bent forward and close to if not already off-balance. The attacker meanwhile has a free hand and probably a free foot to attack you with and your head is unprotected. Good night Irene!

Anyway, as I said aside from this I thought it was good and not as close to FM21-150 as I originally thought reading the spec. It still isn't pure CQC but it does provide a good Self defense system, and the elements that are CQC are practical, the truth will be in how it's taught.

William, I don't know where to get it from, I'll look around and ask around and see if I can dig it up for you.

Regards

Neil

[William]

Thanks for looking for the link, Neil. I followed the address back to the parent web-site, but they didn't have it listed. There was another .exe file that has the MC order for the major areas to be covered in the MC order that you posted the link to. Overall it's very similar to what's at the link you posted.

Neil, is there a way you could send me a copy of MCRP 3-02B? I know the file must be huge, but I am very interested in it. I am the Combatives trainer for my Battalion, and this would be a great help, I'm certain. I will gladly sacrifice a few of my major internal organs in exchange! (Or, do you know where its available on the web? It isn't downloadable from the Marine Corps pubs page.)

William Johnson

[Joseph Svinth]

William --

Also check the USAF combatives manual posted at Journal of Non-lethal Combatives; the URL is http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_aircrew_1100.htm . More will be posted over the coming months, but first I have to finish posting FM 21-150 1942 and Captain Smith...

I don't know about these days, but it used to be that the USMC awarded billet MOS akin to Army special skill identifiers, so I'd guess these CQB billets will be analogous. Probably a CQB instructor billet at the recruit depots, and maybe one or two at division.

Neil --

While jumping backward while bending requires considerable agility (you *are* wearing boots and standing in mud, neh?), note that if the folks are training to standard, the head isn't unprotected, but instead inside a Kevlar brain bucket.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 11-10-2000 at 09:55 PM]

[Robert Carver]

Hi all!

First, Happy Birthday Marines!!

Now down to business. I would love to obtain a copy of MCRP 3-02B (especially since I am a former Marine. If anyone would be so kind to send one along, my email address is webmaster@usjujitsu.net.

Thanks in advance,

[Neil Hawkins]

Yes, boots and mud are the norm and a brain bucket is fitted, but there's still a number of nice targets to aim for, just grabbing the bucket strap and pulling would have the desired effect .

My preferred option is to pivot to the side (This can be done in mud, whilst wearing a pack. Been there, done that! ) block or catch the wrist and either pull forward to off balance then finish with the wrist lock or arm lock described in the manual (don't worry your copies are in the email) or a nice strike to the throat. If he withdraws quickly follow by pushing his hand back behind him and reap, elbow, knee or whatever seems appropriate.

Rule No.1 Get yor body off the line of attack if at all possible.

Regards

Neil

[William]

Joe,

Thanks for the tip about the USAF combatives manual. I'll look at that today.

I think you are probably right about the MOS identifiers for the Martial Arts Marine, et al. Did you know that there is a new skill identifier for the Army, for Jumpmasters? 5W.

William Johnson

[JamesF]

http://www.doctrine.quantico.usmc.mil/

The marines manual is online at the above site - it is however restricted access

James.

[Neil Hawkins]

William,

you wanted MCO 1500.54, the Close Combat Instructor-Trainer (CCIT) and Close Combat Instructor (CCI) requirements and procedures for certification and recertification.

http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/bc9...4?OpenDocument

There's altogether to many acronyms for an non-jarhead like me, but basically I think you have to be a Gunnery Sergeant or above, be qualified and then certified by the chief instructor, who's at TBS. I don't know if they'd let a real soldier do it! (No offense to all you Marines out there, just joking )

If you can decipher the jargon, good luck!

Regards

Neil

Neil

[Sochin]

Neil Hawkins
Moderator- Jujutsu
This action is known as "hollowing out."

Hollow out and block the attack with the arms bent and hands together on top of the attacking arm.

Secondly, this position is virtually impossible to move from.

IF this move is trained from the point of view that it is a natural move that works better with a littte spice - it's not as bad as you feel. While I only spar, I have kept the "knife" out of my guts with this move but I do do it different...the hands don't block (a feeling of static power) , they slap (feeling of whipping power) or whip stike straight forward into the eyes which are quite close (as my main man assistant can tell you, visine is a must!).

Also, the move isn't done to achieve a position but to save your gut and to keep it saved - you are only in it for a split second, then you let your momentum take you out of there, preferably out to one side... Since I / we would never "stop" in this position, I'll take your word for it that it causes trouble doing a second movement.

Since I can't quite seem to train "escape by backing up" out of my natural repitoire, I've decided to use it ! But, when I fight, once I've committed, I've never backed up - for whatever that's worth.

[Neil Hawkins]

Ted,

I agree that a natural reflex is to 'hollow out' as described, and in clean fatigues on smooth ground, this is, as you say, a transition. Not a good one, though, because you are only changing the distance, the attack will come again, usually too quick for you to recover fully and so you move badly again and again until someone severely stuffs up, and the odds are with the guy with the knife.

However, if you try this whilst wearing all your combat gear on uneven ground, you are sacrificing too much balance. The movement is hard to recover from and assuming the attacker is going to continue as well, the fact that you are bent over or moving away in a semi-controlled manner, and both of your hands are committed to the block, puts you at a huge disadvantage.

I'm not saying you couldn't make it work, only that there are a number of better options available under the circumstances. We can debate the merits of techniques for ever and not get anywhere, but I believe that this technique is too dangerous and doesn't cater to the variables of attack sufficiently to be included.

Regards

Neil

[yamatodamashii]

I can't open the document on my computer for some reason, so I'm going to go by what I'm getting from the posts so far.
For training in flak jackets, helmets, etc... Women are issued the same gear as the men in whatever unit they are assigned. If for some reason (and I can't imagine why), some unit did NOT issue 782 gear to their Marines, the battalion supply unit would still have it.
Corpsmen are NOT assigned at platoon level, but they can be requested from the battalion whenever they are needed. Corpsmen must also be present for PFT's, conditioning humps, and even taking a squad through an obstacle course.

A sustainment of 12 months probably means that the material will be tested once a year, just like rifle qualification. Few units, however, won't put thier Marines on an ISMT once in while, though; and of course, even if it isn't ORDERED as PT twice a week, I imagine a lot of squad leaders will use it as morning PT, when morning PT is mandated (since most Marines I know would rather work out on their own, anyway).

For 3 MOS's dealing with martial arts training, it will probably also be dealt with as marksmanship instruction. They will likely all be secondary MOS's, with SNCO's put in the bill when they rotate, and NCO/nonNCO's put in whenever the quota comes up. For markmanship, the USMC has 3581's (Primary Marksmanship Instructors--NCO/non-rates are coaches who work with individuals, SNCO's are Primary Marksmanship Instructors, who teach the classes and supervise) and 3582's (Small Arms Instructors--teaching all weapons from pistol to mortars. SNCO's are usually also in charge of the ranges.)