Ueshiba-ha Aikibudo vs. Takeda-ha Aikibudo

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

Per request in a recent PM, I am submiting the following question for discussion by those interested:

Ueshiba S. taught what he called "Aikibudo" for a time during the pre-war years, between teaching Daito ryu and modern Aikido. Some of this can be viewed in Ueshiba S.'s book "Budo Renshu".

Tokimune T. Soke also created/restructured an art he called "Daito ryu Aikibudo" that appealed to modern society a bit more (Kyu/dan system, Takeda-den Ono-ha itto ryu kenjutsu, etc.).

Were either of these events influenced by the other, and how different (or similar) are these two "Aikibudo's"?

Regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

What, no takers? I am trying to wait for the opinions of someone else first....ya'll have to the end of the day......

Ron

[Dennis Hooker]

Who was Ueshiba S. ?
Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
Who was Ueshiba S. ?
Dennis Hooker

Ueshiba Morihei Sensei, founder of Aikido

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

Ueshiba Sensei (Ueshiba Morihei) was this guy who made some art called "Aikido".

Ueshiba Sensei was (arguably) an advanced exponent of Daito ryu under Takeda Sokaku S., and before founding Aikido he had changed the name to Aikibudo for a few years. During that time, some of the well known pre-war students of Aikido (Shioda S., Mochizuki S., etc.) were students and received mokuroku under this name. Many of the techniques were documented in a privately published book called "Budo Renshu", which I suspect a member of DR would refer to as Daito ryu Jujutsu (not Aikijujutsu).

I could probably shuffle through my books when I have the time to figure out when Ueshiba S. used that name (any other takers?). But one question that comes to mind was who was using the term Aikibudo first, and is it likely that either Tokimune S. or Ueshiba S. were influenced by the other's choice of terminology and perhaps curriculum?

That's the topic.

Do we need some "lighter" threads right now?

Regards,

[RDeppe]

Nathan, Dennis Hooker (like everyone else) knows who Morihei Ueshiba is and what he did. I think Dennis was poking fun at your inconsistant naming convention: Ueshiba S vs Tokimune T. Soke.

I have to say, it's the first time I've seen Morihei Ueshiba refered to as Ueshiba S.

It's a good question BTW-- unfortunately I don't do aikijujits/aikibudo nor have the historical background to address the answer.

Best regards,
Robert

[Nathan Scott]

Fair enough.

The "S." is obviously short for "Sensei", which is a generic term and cumbersome to type repeatedly when discussing multiple teachers in the same paragraph. "Soke" is a bit more of a unique title, and probably warrants being spelled out (although I'm sure nobody would be offended if I simply called him Sensei).

I've seen this short hand done before elsewhere, and kind of like the (at least) implied attempt at respect when referring to instructors. If ya'll think it is ridiculous or confusing, I'm happy to drop it.

BTW, Takeda Tokimune was a self proclaimed "Soke", and Ueshiba Morihei was a self proclaimed "Doshu". So we can use these terms if they are more comfortable, or simply call everyone Sensei to there is no implied bias.

Communication is designed to enable understanding between people, so either we understand what is being said or we don't.

Any opinions on this very important subject of title conventions?



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-15-2000 at 12:30 PM]

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by RDeppe
Nathan, Dennis Hooker (like everyone else) knows who Morihei Ueshiba is and what he did. I think Dennis was poking fun at your inconsistant naming convention: Ueshiba S vs Tokimune T. Soke.

Opps, I didn't notice that Dennis studies Aiki related arts.

[Ron Tisdale]

uhhhh, yep, he (Hooker S.) was being a tad humorous, I think. I myself dislike refering to M. Ueshiba S. as "O'Sensei". Especially when trying to objectively write about historical occurances or technical details. The honorific carries with it a certain implication to others of "hero worship" which I would rather avoid. I suspect that some others feel the same way.

Nathan-san, shorthand away as far as I'm concerned. But I'd really like to see some opinions on the actual question.



One comment; Kondo S. this weekend seemed to be saying that the techniques in the ikkajo series may or may not have aiki applied in them. They may be performed as jujutsu, or as aikijujutsu. From one of the demonstrations he did at the end of the seminar, I think that the effectiveness displayed by Ueshiba S. and Shioda S. was not possible with straight jujutsu techniques. I think the aiki is what makes even many of the ikkajo techniques as devestating as they felt to me. Just my opinion. This is not to say that the aiki of the two arts is the same. Just that some level of aiki seems to be present in both (at least at the higher levels of performance[ick, bad choice of word?]).

Ron (now *that* should get things going) Tisdale

[Nathan Scott]

With all due respect, I agree with Ron-san regarding the "O-Sensei" thing (nice web page though, Mr. Hooker).

I'll bite:

Daito ryu exponents (well, Brently-san in particular) have stated that the Jujutsu waza can be performed with Aiki if the student has achieved a grasp of DR Aiki. But your comment regarding Ueshiba S. and Shioda S. come back to the question of "which Aiki"?

I think we all agree that they used aiki as defined "classicaly", but whether they used aiki as defined by DR (DR aiki) is another question all together. They sure didn't seem to teach DR aiki.

Regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

Gotcha! Ok, if both had it, were did Shioda S. learn it?

Ron Tisdale

[Nathan Scott]

Hey, I never said that Shioda S. had DR aiki!! (did I?)

It is possible though. His technique was alot closer to Ueshiba S. than alot of the later students. It's also possible that Ueshiba S. did teach DR Aiki to some degree when he was still teaching DR and perhaps up to the Aikibudo days. If that was the case, it would explain the similarity.

But I can't say. I was never thrown by either of them!!

There's no doubt that the earlier Aikibudo and Aikido more closely resembled Daito ryu than the post-war versions.

Regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

Man, am I glad you have a good sense of humor...

What it may come down to is "stealing the technique". Some can do that, most need real personal guidance I think.

Someone ( ) recently told me "I don't mind if you steal my technique". He was even down right insistant that we do so....yelled at us for making him fly 14 hours to teach us just to have us keep doing what we already know.....

Certainly suggests that he was doing something different...

Ron Tisdale

[Nathan Scott]

What it may come down to is "stealing the technique". Some can do that, most need real personal guidance I think.

I definitely agree with this. Good point.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

"Hey, I never said that Shioda S. had DR aiki!! "

I don't necessarily agree with exclusive view of DR aiki that some have professed. I also note that this view is very different than the teacher's view of the individual that continues to push this view without backing it up. Regardless of that, it should be noted that Shioda S. took private lessons from Horikawa S. so he was most likely (read definitely) exposed to DR aiki at it's highest levels.

mark