Why Kaiso has failed

[Pippo_Jedi]

why Kaiso has failed

In my humble opinion Kaiso has failed. that is what he leaved behind, aka wsko
and SK, has failed its original purpose.

I was taught that the aim of SK was to teach people to
-live half for oneself, half for the others
-cooperate between themselves to build something
-know the meaning of Budo
-love peace and justice
-to teach a way of self defense.
and essentially all that it is written in the Doukun.

I think that wsko and federations and a lot of sensei have failed
this purpose along the way.

I will quote Kaiso himself to better explain my view
"Traditionally, teachers of martial art in Japan set themselves up on high, emphasizing how strong they are, how important they are, and what a difference there is between themselves and their students. If their students catch up to them, their positions would be endangered; and that is why they set themselves up as if they were in an unreachable position.

there are fools who will have problems arise with their students and then complain in a corner that they were betrayed, but before they start complaining, I think they ought to examine just what their part was in the problem."

In my experience I encoutered many sensei who were, not on surface, but deep in their hearts, in that way.
Some ways of conducting a dojo, or a federation, could be good for japan... 30 years ago.
Cooperation, mutual aid do not mean, to me at last, a Sensei (or sempai) that says "do that", and someone
obeys... where are the principles of Doukun in that?
I see only, well the powerfull ones, sensei hammer down to their students and comrades their will. Like it was an army. SK its not and should not be like an army.
How can someone really learn "Half and Half" from a sensei, when ten minutes after Howa
he/she forces his will down your throath regarding things that are not specifically his only purview? it's not not liking a way of doing gyaku gote, it's about
'sharing this principles with the other with Friendship, Respect and mutual aid'.

the only way SK could raise above the mud it's fallen into is 30 years in the future. maybe.
Maybe when this class of sensei had died and a young one, born in the '90 had rised Sk
will be partially free. If in the meantime, before they die, those sensei don't explel all those
who disagree and norture only their clone pupils.

That is my opinon, be free to disaccord.

[Tripitaka of AA]

There is a story here, waiting to be told... methinks.

Dirty washing to hang out? Private feud to be fought in public?

Do you really have comments that relate to ALL Shorinji Kempo, or someone in particular? Perhaps you could provide a more clear example of the attitude that you think is wrong.

[Pippo_Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA

There is a story here, waiting to be told... methinks.

Dirty washing to hang out? Private feud to be fought in public?

Do you really have comments that relate to ALL Shorinji Kempo, or someone in particular? Perhaps you could provide a more clear example of the attitude that you think is wrong.

to all SK I know it is obvious...

[David Dunn]

Fillipo, it's not obvious to me what you're on about. Sounds like you've got an axe to grind. What you're saying doesn't have any resonances with any of the senior masters I've had the pleasure to train with over the years. Anyway, I thought you quit training?

[Pippo_Jedi]

Yes, I quit SK for the reasons above.

[Daniel J Hulme]

Filippo, I couldn’t agree with you more. In fact, I was recently contemplating starting a similar thread myself.

I trained for 4 years (I left the organisation 1 year ago), and have been extremely passionate about SK and it’s ideals since the very beginning. From originally being a very passive and accepting person, for some unknown reason I suddenly (over a period of a few months) became very intolerable of peoples unacceptable actions/attitudes – both inside and outside the dojo. Since SK was a large part of my life (and still is), as a consequence my new found intolerability was directed towards persons within the organisation.

The BSKF Kyu grade syllabus says ‘Live half for yourself and half for others’, the Dan grade syllabus says ‘Give me leaders and not followers’. Doshin So wanted us to live life to its fullest, to stand up for not just what we feel is ‘right’, but also against what we feel is ‘wrong’; that it is important to cultivate a companionate and accepting attitude for others, giving us enough ‘wisdom’ to actually know what righteous behaviour really is. But you all know this anyway……

Dave, your response to Filippo seems a little weak. Although I have ‘quit’ training, I have been more Shorinji Kempo’esque in the past year than I’ve ever been. Aside from the increased practical implementation of the philosophy I spend a lot of time trying to understand the precise patterns of the techniques. I ‘train’ now more than I ever have.

So many times have I heard one senior grade telling students that another senior grade has ‘missed the point [of SK]’ – maybe I have too, but I know that SK has instilled a responsibility in me to grow as much as one can grow. Don’t think that by training a Zen discipline for 15 years means that you have become more ‘enlightened’ (or free of ones barriers) than when you started, because from my experience the majority of people have become so full that all they have left to do is take comfort in their own self-delusion. The term ‘Sunday Christian’ springs to mind – we spend all this time training, yet seldom implement it – doesn’t this make us ‘worse’ than people who don’t have the same opportunities as we do? A common reply to this is ‘I do SK for me, not others’ – I can’t argue against this, we all do SK for different reasons, and I don’t really think one reason is more right than another.

Don’t get me wrong, I think SK is brilliant. I won’t bore you with the details for why I left, but in summary I felt that if I stayed in the organisation I would spend a lot of time and energy pointing out what I thought was unacceptable and hypocritical behaviour of mainly the senior grades – making a lot of enamies and possibly upsetting the people that I actually like. This time and energy, I felt, could be put to better use doing something else that will achieve what I want to achieve. I left SK because I actually do believe in what it’s trying to teach.

I have spoken about these issues with a number of kenshi, I often come across arrogant, and hope you forgive me if I do so. Sam Majed once asked the class ‘what are you actually doing to make a difference?’. I thought he was arrogant at the time, but the phrase stuck and I realised that he was 100% right. What are you actually doing to make a difference? Are you really becoming a better person? Is there a more efficient way of becoming who you want to be, or is SK just a way of procrastinating so that you don’t actually have to do the hard work? You have one shot at life, so is the amount of time that you train as useful as simply sitting watching TV trash 4 hours a day?

I was told that I demand too much of people, that people aren’t perfect, they make mistakes and that I will always be disappointed. This is totally not true – I think people (some senior grades) don’t demand enough of themselves and so have no right to teach these ideas to anyone else until they actually do.

These forums are a poor medium for this type of discussion, but I’m very interested and looking forward to read your opinions.

Daniel

[Tripitaka of AA]

"Why Kaiso has failed"

Sorry to focus on use of language, as Philippo is not using his first language to post (I'm always impressed by this skill), but I think his post shows he might have been better to call it "Why Shorinji Kempo today, has failed Kaiso".
but his posts only seem to qualify for "Why this Kenshi has left Shorinji Kempo".

I'm a "quitter". I know that I took many years to forgive/excuse myself. I know that there are many reasons to give up training. I know that many people find it very difficult to "allow themselves" to quit training when they still believe in the principles behind Shorinji Kempo. Trying to justify their actions to themselves and to others can sometimes involve some pretty strange extremes of guilt, blame, anger and denial. I'll echo Jame's timely reminder that any Kenshi that gets to listen to a few Howa will probably get some benefit out of it, even if they disappear from class never to be seen again. Kaiso's legacy is not just reserved for the members that can maintain their training presence throughout their lives. Even a few weeks can make a difference.

I would hope that the complex emotions that are involved in the decision to "move on", "fade away", or "escape" (select as appropriate), can be tempered with the thought that, things may change with time. You wouldn't want to burn your bridges now, only to find in a few years time that you want to come back to training but can't because of things that were said.

I've been lucky enough to find an outlet online for some of the passion that remains within me for Shorinji Kempo. I am still unable to train (for the forseeable future), and I know that this is NO WAY TO BE A KENSHI, but it's the best I can do.

[Pippo_Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA

"Why Kaiso has failed"

Sorry to focus on use of language, as Philippo is not using his first language to post (I'm always impressed by this skill), but I think his post shows he might have been better to call it "Why Shorinji Kempo today, has failed Kaiso".
but his posts only seem to qualify for "Why this Kenshi has left Shorinji Kempo".

This forum etiquette says its members should show respect one another.
I think you had not the intention to show disrespect, so let me correct you without offense taken.
I know what I wrote and what I wrote is exactly what I meant. you are free to discuss it and disagree with me, but I feel that saying that what I wrote is wrong because english is not one of my two native languages is a "little unfair" and just a weak point. contend with me on issues, not on grammar, wich is not bad.
second thing my name is written Filippo as you can see, please write it correctly as is not a difficult one.

now...

Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA

You wouldn't want to burn your bridges now, only to find in a few years time that you want to come back to training but can't because of things that were said.

I can answer saying
"if you encounter a buddha on your way kill it"
and saying that if I would like to return in the future such things as ego should not be important, that would mean attaching to something and, if you follow Zen, that would be bad.

Originally Posted by Ero Sennin

Traits such as agression and selfishness are both typical human traits, both of which can be especially hard to lose. Even for a long time kenshi. If a Sensei is perfectly willing to spend time to teach his class about the ideals of SK, even if they do not always live up to them, it would suggest to me that they atleast aspire to them. This in my opinion gives them every right to pass on what they have learned. It's about growth. Not instant results.

What about activelly destroying others work only because its not yours? or only beacause its done not in your way? you are saying a different thing, I agree with you. unfurtunately that was not my point.

Originally Posted by jailess

But was the topic of this thread whether or not Kaiso has failed? it seems the current discussion has drifted a little. I do not think that he has. I think in even one small person like myself, he has made a difference. Through my Sensei he has taught me to think about things in a new manner, a manner which will be greatly useful to me in my adult career.

The title I choose is purpusefully a contradiction, a strong phrase to attract audience, and a thuth. to make a comparison.
Jesus, if you believe he existed, said some very interesting things, so to speak, but we all know that historically the various churches had not behaved "good". does it do all of what Jesus said wrong? clearly it doesn't. was I clear enough?

-David Dunn
Let me do what I consider a rethoric question: what do you think of a member of a federation that sends one of his former students/pupil/someone that let himself order around (I don/t know wich is best) in another country to create a branch with the purpose of creating conflict in the other federation and, ultimatelly, to gain more political power?
that is one of the things I don't like at all. one of them.

Originally Posted by colin linz

I would have to say that I have only ever experienced problems linking Shorinji Kempo philosophy to the actions of a sensei with only one sensei. Without exception every senior sensei I have experienced has backed up Kaiso’s words with their own actions. I don’t doubt that you are not sincere in your claim, but I do believe that what you are describing is not representative of Shorinji Kempo and is an isolated case.

Despite Shorinji Kempo’s ideals, the organisation is one of humans not machines. This leaves it open to normal human failings. Everyone won’t always be perfect, what counts is that they are trying to be honest with themselves and trying to improve themselves. Everyone will have a different starting point; some people may have further to travel to reach their goals than others, this does not mean they are not travelling on the same path though.

to the first part: it is clear that not every kenshi belong to the category I spoke of, I'm not so stupid, but, and that answers second part too, all the powerfull ones, the ones that count, that I've seen are in that way. I hope your experience differs from mine.
but in my view it is a widespread problem.

Originally Posted by CityShorinji

Great topic, Jedi, great. And great headline - got my attention right away. I've got some views for you on this - separate to this stuff with Daniel. I'll post again shortly.

thank you, I wait.


Thank you to the answering, and to the reading ones.
farewell

[Daniel J Hulme]

Originally Posted by Steve Williams

Daniel, sorry to hear that you have quit (training at least, not the ideals) e-mail me (address in profile) like to talk to you about stuff........ maybe not best to air "dirty washing" in a public forum (unless you really want to...)

Hi Steve. I don’t have any animosities, axes to grind, dirty washing to air, nor any dogis to iron. I think it’s a really interesting topic and want to be clear from the outset that I’m not attacking SK nor any of it’s members directly.

Originally Posted by Pippo_Jedi

if forums are not medium of discussion we would be wasting our time lurking here, are we?

Fillipo. These forums are a ‘poor’ medium for discussion, but they are convenient. So often I see people’s contributions torn to shreds because of a few misinterpretations, and what were originally interesting topics end up turning into slagging matches between the eloquently gifted few. I’d much prefer to talk about this stuff over a coffee, believe me.

Originally Posted by Pippo_Jedi

what I don't accept is when someone wants you to do something that is, in your opinion, just plain wrong and you should do it only beacause '"he's the boss"...

I know what you are saying. I think that this is where we differ, although this type of behaviour I agree is totally unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Pippo_Jedi

it is a shame seeing people that do SK for 30 years that don't give it a try... and worse of all, they force you to not doing it.

I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to say here, but I think that it is important not get caught up in specific details. Human behaviour is extremely complex and it is not for me (nor anyone) to judge what is right and wrong based on such minimal information.

Originally Posted by CityShorinji

I'm 16 years in, this year. My whole adult life. I've had a lot of debate around this topic, with friends, and with myself. Not least from two years 'in the wilderness'. I've got some pretty well-worn ideas about all of this.

Superb. I’m intrigued.

Originally Posted by CityShorinji

One? You mean the same person? Is this the root of your disaffection, Daniel?

I wish it was that easy, but no, not one, nor three nor seven nor ten.

Originally Posted by CityShorinji

That's going too far. Did you include Russell in that? Pete? Jee? PW? Terry? Niall? Me? Tell me Daniel, how well did you get to know us all in your long 4 years?

My experience with everyone you have mentioned has been positive. Like I said it isn’t an individual, I just think that we (as people, not just SK practitioners) should be a little less tolerant of peoples inappropriate behaviour and inactions.

Originally Posted by CityShorinji

It's looking that way so far. And no, I don't forgive you. Not yet.

I totally agree with your point, but I felt that I should be a little extreme to get everyones blood pumping.

Originally Posted by CityShorinji

As I said to start with, I've got a few well-worn ideas on this. But you are no longer around to hear them. Well if you want a better forum, I'll happily sit over a beer with you one night after my class and talk to you about it. I'll even tell you why I drag myself away from my two beautiful kids two nights a week to teach my class. You don't even need to come to the class, just meet me afterwards.

Two? Is this a new development? I’ll take you up on that offer Adrian – I work in Old Street, so just name the pub, and I’ll be there.

Originally Posted by CityShorinji

In inverted commas??? I sense much doubt in you, Daniel-san. Doubt leads to fear. Fear leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side......

Funnily enough, you’re not the first person to say this. Does that make Arai Sensei Yoda?

Originally Posted by colin linz

Despite Shorinji Kempo’s ideals, the organisation is one of humans not machines. This leaves it open to normal human failings. Everyone won’t always be perfect, what counts is that they are trying to be honest with themselves and trying to improve themselves.

Colin. I think you’re absolutely right; we are all human with basic selfish instincts. It’s all about intent – we all intend to be honest with ourselves, but does it actually happen? Do we try to make it happen? Are we relying on the fact that if we study the techniques long enough we will magically one day wake up enlightened? Some evidence that I’ve seen makes me question whether we are actually ‘trying’ hard enough.

Originally Posted by colin linz

Everyone will have a different starting point; some people may have further to travel to reach their goals than others, this does not mean they are not travelling on the same path though.

It’s a nice metaphor, and definitely something I would have happily accepted a year ago. However, if a person behaves inappropriately, given that they know the behaviour is wrong, then this must be dealt with. People make mistakes, but there is a time when you just have to say enough is enough.

Originally Posted by colin linz

I would have to say that I have only ever experienced problems linking Shorinji Kempo philosophy to the actions of a sensei with only one sensei. Without exception every senior sensei I have experienced has backed up Kaiso’s words with their own actions. I don’t doubt that you are not sincere in your claim, but I do believe that what you are describing is not representative of Shorinji Kempo and is an isolated case.

I’ve read the article Fillipo quoted from….

http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/kaiso/20.html

Do you think that Kaiso brought these issues up for no apparent reason? Maybe he knew that this type of behaviour/attitude is more common than we would like to think and felt it important to make people aware of it.

Originally Posted by David Dunn

Why should I get involved in a discussion that is based around innuendo and insinuation?

I agree, I don’t want to be bogged down in details of Fillipos situation, or be involved in grinding an axe, but it’s an interesting topic nevertheless. I don’t think WSKO nor Kaiso has failed, but I do think it is our responsibility to try harder – otherwise aren’t we actually failing WSKO and Kaiso?

Originally Posted by David Dunn

It's a sleight of hand Daniel. Leaving is easy, and so is criticising afterwards. I could have left a dozen times over, when I got a new job, when I moved town, when I had a baby, when I wondered what the point of training is. Easy decision, easy life.

On the contrary Dave, criticising is very difficult for me, and leaving SK was probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done. If you realize this, then you’ll understand where I’m coming from.

Originally Posted by David Dunn

I have to echo Adrian's sentiment. Jee, Russ, Pete, Terry, Paul, Yasue, Niall, not to mention Mizuno Sensei and Aosaka Sensei. Do you know what thirty years of dedication actually looks like? That means marriage, kids, careers, family bereavements, illness. There's no cash incentive involved, or any fame or kudos.

Dave, given that I have done Martial Arts since I was 5 (with minor interludes), I think I do know what commitment is. The old ‘time served’ argument is so nebulous I cant argue against it; nebulous because effort and gain (and the change in ones attitude towards others) is not a function of just time served, nor is it a function of how well you know the techniques, or the number of Zen books you’ve read. I’m sure you yourself can draw many parallels with academia.

Originally Posted by David Dunn

You think it's for self-satisfaction or comfort?

I think that every decision one makes is for self-satisfaction, but this philosophical question has been debated for many centuries and probably not one to try and answer in this thread.

Originally Posted by jailess

But was the topic of this thread whether or not Kaiso has failed? it seems the current discussion has drifted a little. I do not think that he has. I think in even one small person like myself, he has made a difference. Through my Sensei he has taught me to think about things in a new manner, a manner which will be greatly useful to me in my adult career.

SK has a huge amount of value to offer, this I don’t deny, and I still encourage everyone that I meet to join. Forgive me for the repetition but I feel that we are gaining all of this knowledge and skill, and so are thus responsible to actually give something back – besides teaching.

Originally Posted by Ero Sennin

Traits such as agression and selfishness are both typical human traits, both of which can be especially hard to lose. Even for a long time kenshi. If a Sensei is perfectly willing to spend time to teach his class about the ideals of SK, even if they do not always live up to them, it would suggest to me that they atleast aspire to them. This in my opinion gives them every right to pass on what they have learned. It's about growth. Not instant results.

I do agree with you, but being devils advocate, isn’t this completely hypocritical? And if you knew that they didn’t practise what they preached, wouldn’t this totally devalue the entire experience?

Originally Posted by Pippo_Jedi

What about activelly destroying others work only because its not yours? or only beacause its done not in your way? you are saying a different thing, I agree with you. unfurtunately that was not my point.

I don’t think we should get caught up in specific examples/details – this can rapidly spiral out of control and dilute an interesting discussion.

Daniel

[Daniel J Hulme]

Sorry Filippo - I spelt your name wrong in my previous post. Daniel

[sean dixie]

Daniel, glad to see your alive and well, how's Shona? As I was reading this I was remembering a fantastic spinning ashi barai you performed on Jason one time in Brixton - don't you miss that?

Reading these posts I'm still at a loss as to your reasons for leaving, especially since you still seem so passionate about our art. If the powers that be are so bad you can't bare to train, how can you recomend others to do so?

[Steve Williams]

In answer to the original question posed by Filippo:
No Kaiso has not failed, if you look at the people around you (if you still train) or read what the people on here write (most of them) or even if you know any of the people who write on here (I know quite a few of them) then you would be aware of the level of commitment to kaisos ideals.

You have only to read the posts by Daniel (who has left training by his own choice) to see that the ideals which kaiso started are alive and very well.....



I will ask (if you still train in shorinjikempo) do you see your sensei in a "social environment" i.e. outside of the dojo, in a restaurtant/sports setting/even in his or your home??
Of all (without exception) the high graded (4th dan+) and the vast majority of the "lower graded" (2nd/3rd dan) sensei who I have known are very much living (to the best of their ability) the ideals that kaiso tried to envisage.
Many sensei switch on their "sensei mode" when they enter the dojo, and can seem to be "stand-off-ish" or aloof or even domineering...... I know I do on occasion...... when I am in a social setting then I am "caring sharing friendly sensei"...... when in the dojo I am "hard barstuard sensei"..... this is often a necessary mode to be in when teaching martial arts..... those who know me can vouch for that (I hope )..........



One more point, lets keep this thread on topic, if you want to discuss "why I/he/she left shorinjikempo" then open a new thread....... while interesting to hear and read and comment on, it does cloud the issue in hand a little.

[Ade]

Gassho

You only fail when you give up.

Don't bother chasing those that quit, concentrate your efforts on those that deserve attention.

Kesshu

Ade

[Pippo_Jedi]

Originally Posted by Ade

Gassho

You only fail when you give up.

Don't bother chasing those that quit, concentrate your efforts on those that deserve attention.

Kesshu

Ade

I suppose who's giving up depends on one's own perspective...

[Ade]

Quit it.

You've left remember? you don't have to justify yourselves to us, you've quit.

Don't go away mad.

Just go away.

From all perspectives.