Koryu Snobs Revisited

[Ron Beaubien]

Here is another definition of "snob". This one was taken from the only dictionary I have on hand. Namely, the American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition):

"Snob (snob) n. 1. A person who is convinced of and flaunts his social superiority. 2. A person who despises his inferiors and whose condescension arises from social or intellectual pretension."

Might this definition be a little less vague?

I hope this helps,

Ron



[Edited by Ron Beaubien on 06-20-2000 at 10:11 AM]

[Chuck Clark]

Joe,

I don't understand how you came to put me in the first group you listed above. I know those folks and Phil Relnick is my teacher in Shinto Muso-ryu, but I do not teach any koryu art. Jiyushinkai Aikibudo is most definitely modern, although I have been told our practice has many koryu aspects.

We do practice Shinto Muso-ryu in my dojo, the Jiyushinkan, in Tempe, Arizona, but Phil Relnick Sensei is the teacher. Unfortunately, it's one of those long distance "love affairs" and we spend lots of money on airline tickets.

My attitude is this: We've been doing this practice for a long time (sure it changes some, but we do our best to keep the kata as close to what was taught by our teachers and their teachers), and if you want to practice with us, you're welcome. You should understand, though, that this practice will not change for you...you must fit to the practice.

This is a paraphrase of something my teacher has said.

There's lots of junk out there and there's lots of good stuff. Of course, I think what I do is some of the "good stuff" or I wouldn't be doing it! But then that probably fits everyone else too.

If I'm a SNOB... then at least let me assure you all that my intent is gentle and uplifting. One aspect of the definitions that I and my students definitely don't fit is..We do not imitate anyone without question! Great Faith Tempered With Great Doubt.

Regards,

[Dave Lowry]

Mr. Svinth is uncharacteristically careless in his suggestion I have waffled in my estimates. I began by placing the number of koryu “exponents” at less than one hundred. For the sake of answering his argument I noted theoretically that we could quadruple or quintuple my original estimate and my conclusion (that there are not enough koryu practitioners in the West for a newcomer to the budo to have drawn conclusions about them though personal contact) would be unaltered.
In a later message, I placed the number of individuals capable of “teaching” a koryu at less than ten. Practising is not the same as teaching, nor does the former imply the latter. Mr. Svinth knows this. He is as well an excellent researcher and scholar and so he knows better too, than to rely on arguments of pedantry such as quoting a dictionary in an effort to make a point.

Well here I go again. I have been trying to hold my tongue since this whole debate began.
First, let me say I have no ax to grind against anyone, koryu or gendai.
I have exchanged e-mails or posts with Mr. Amdur, Mr. Lowry and both of the Skoss's. All have been very cordial and helpful whenever I have asked a question. Ms. Skoss has allowed me to put links from her site on my new website. I have most of Mr. Lowry's books and always recommend them to friends. Mr. Skoss provided me with some valuable info awhile back on the Yagyu-kai. Mr. Amdur has been very forthcoming in information whenever I have asked a question.
So are these specific people snobs? Not in my estimation.
However, have I occassionally read posts here or at Iaido-L that I felt came off abit harsh? Yes, I have. However, to categorize someone as a snob based on a correspondance made on what might have been a bad day is a bit extreme.
I know I have said things on certain forums that in hindsight were rude and hopefully out of character.
So give these people a break!
Hasn't this thread gone on long enough?
Why must all the negative threads always be the ones that go on the longest (like I'm helping here )?

Richard
http://pub16.ezboard.com/bsamuraibujutsu

Dave,
It is one thing to paraphrase someone for using another country's cooking style as a means to an end, but you have made the assumption that you know what is what south of the border. In fact, you have not only insulted an entire people, but you have assumed that no one here would question your very good, but very innacurate "dictonary" Spanish. You want to equate koryu with "mexican food?" That's fine with me, but don't make all these assumptions for us. I have not doubt you have knowledge of the poorest regions of Mexico, but you insult them by your quaint, but misfired attempt at humor, and at the same time, you come off even more an example of the topic of your own threads. You may or may not know of what you speak as for koryu, but please do not assume you know jack about Mexico and indeed, Spanish.

Your joke about the land of doubtful water is not only wrong, but you would have the people looking at each other attempting to ascertain what it is you mean. Assuming you know what your dictionary says, by employing the word "borrego," you have insulted an entire people by referring to them as "simpletons." While the dictionary you possess may or may not be accurate technically speaking, you also assume no one will question you on this knowledge, as you have concerning koryu. Might I suggest that before you go on with all your assumptions, that you first make sure you know what the hell you are talking about? You seem to think you are a master at knowing the differences in cooking styles in the poorest and least educated part of Mexico (the Southern part), but even your jokes are not comprehensible, as you use words in your jokes which have almost no meaning in the contexts in which you have used them. I spent a fairly decent part of my life to study and learn the culture, not mention living it, do please keep the comparisons of Mexican cooking, your undoubted travels of Mexico to showing slides to your neighbors. You may or may not like the opinions of others who have researched the matter, but I do agree on one thing. It is much better to live the experience than talk the talk. However, you do come off as one who thinks he has, but hasn't and has only come across as one of the topic's descriptions of some poeple. I for one have read some of what you have written in BB magazine, but it does leave a lot to consider.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 10:53 PM]

Sorry, double post, deleted.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 11:22 PM]

Dave,
You find Mr. Svinth's reply "uncharacteristic?" Do you mean he gave an opinion, along with his "characteristic" giving of figures as well? If memory seves, and without going back to review, you have given at least two differing numbers concerning koryu teachers. That some do not have a "license of transmission," as Mr Clark implies, matters not. You seem to have problems with almost everyone who disagrees with you. You receive nearly eighty responses on your first post because the post was allowed to go beyond the standard of fifty posts on E-budo. Mr. Svinth gave names and numbers to back up his statements which is very characteristic of his posts. You, on the other hand do not mind the doubling, tripling, etc. of numbers you gave, but protest because all the teachers listed did not have a licence to "fix" transmissions. Please take into consideration that you are no different than anyone who posts here. It is a bulletin board, and until everyone agrees it still is opinion. Take the blinders off Mr. Lowry. You may miss a good part of your life.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 11:27 PM]

Woe Mark,
Take a chill pill bud!!!! I thought Joe provided some good insight too, but he was civil about it and so was Dave's reply.

[Joseph Svinth]

Sorry, Mr. Clark, for the mistaken identification. My sources uniformly agreed that your martial arts were as good as they came, and as a result I jumped to the conclusion that you must have been an elite koryu practitioner rather than just another gendai type.

Ms. Lo, regarding my definitions, yes, it is quite possible that Webster's is wrong. Probably I should go to the library and read the Oxford English Dictionary definition, as that remains the English standard. If so, then my analysis is incorrect, as it was based on faulty premises. Nevertheless, as Professor Bodiford reminded us awhile back, when discussing anything one really should begin by defining terms, otherwise we end up talking at cross-purposes. Perhaps we should ask the young fellow who started all this to define his terms, as that is the only definition which is truly relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the analogy, well, if you find it inappropriate, ignore it. Nevertheless, I do not see how this one is any worse than comparing a class held two nights a week after work to months of intensive training.

Mr. Lowry -- I apologize for any errors, but admit to never having extensively explored US koryu politics and history. Therefore much of what you see here is me thinking out loud.

I also respectfully bow to your greater knowledge and until better information is received agree to henceforth state that on the basis of information received from you there are fewer than ten real koryu teachers in North America today. Do you want to write the other twenty folks notifying them that in your opinion the odds are 6-to-1 that they are poseurs or should I?

I do apologize to anyone out there who was insulted by the tone of my reply concerning Dave Lowry's knowledge of Mexico and/or Spanish, particularly the Mexican dialect. I just got the feeling that there was more than an analogy being made by Dave. It just goes to show that one had better be sure of what one says in a foreign language before posting it. It is also recommended that since this thread is about koryu of Japan, then leave the analogies as such at home. You never know who is out there lurking.

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth

Ms. Lo, regarding my definitions, yes, it is quite possible that Webster's is wrong. Probably I should go to the library and read the Oxford English Dictionary definition, as that remains the English standard. If so, then my analysis is incorrect, as it was based on faulty premises. Nevertheless, as Professor Bodiford reminded us awhile back, when discussing anything one really should begin by defining terms, otherwise we end up talking at cross-purposes. Perhaps we should ask the young fellow who started all this to define his terms, as that is the only definition which is truly relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the analogy, well, if you find it inappropriate, ignore it. Nevertheless, I do not see how this one is any worse than comparing a class held two nights a week after work to months of intensive training.

Joe - I would be interested in seeing the Oxford Dictionary definition. My disagreement with the analogy is just that, my opinion. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about comparing classes?

-M-

It seems to me that the real snobs are those members of styles with doubtful origins that continue to try and affiliate themselves with legitimate koryu. I've never experienced any actual instructors of koryu who felt it necessary to put on airs about their practice. Yet, I've met any number of instructors and practitioners of rather questionable styles or organizations who try to align themselves with authentic Japanese koryu while treating all others as inferior. So why all this discussion?

[Dennis Hooker]

What are we looking for? Why do we choose one art over another and why must we defend ourselves as snobs or anti-snobs. Hell, one is as bad as the other, some budo folks are like those fundamentalist Christians that don’t wear jewelry because it draws attention to themselves, but they also make a show out of not wearing jewelry to display their piety. For some folks a koryu connection is principal, too others it is not. One’s training should not be less dear to one just because life’s folly has not allowed a direct connection with the koryu of Japan. However, may feel incomplete and some believe their training has less merit because of this. Therefore, they cast aspirins upon those that have. Also it can be said that “some” of those that live or lived in Japan and trained in Japan in koryu do show arrogance, many times out of proportion to their skill. I know may people, some who studied koryu arts in Japan, some of whom pretend to be warriors and others which are warriors that pretend not to be. Of course, there are those that don’t even consider the issue but are only interested in the art as a personal growth tool, and a living lesson in history.

Having had many of the Japanese and Okinawa arts open to me over the years I selected Aikido and I chose my teachers because of what I wanted and what I was looking for. I also selected my association with MJER for the same reason. I suggest that many folks have done the same thing, and if they get what they are looking for then their training is no less valid than any that have gone to Japan. Also respect should be given to those that set their dream of studying in Japan and then had the courage and good fortune to follow through with their dream.

By the way if anyone wants to put my old ass on a plane, in a coach seat, from Florida back to Japan they better bring an armed guard and restraints. I shall not go gentle in to that good flight!

Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

Regarding Mr. Feigenbaum's personal attack on Mr. Lowry.

Mark,

I suggest that you carefully read and read again Mr.Lowry's posts and Mr. Svinth's replies. You are way off base.

As far as your supposed command of the Spanish language, Lowry's use of the word "borrego" in this context translates to "lamb" not "simpletons" as you so imply. Once again read the post carefully.

The "land of doubtful water". Yep, sure is. How many of those traveling to Mexico have enjoyed "Montezuma's Revenge"? I know I have on several occasions.

Based upon your comments, it is obvious you don't know much about Mr. Lowry or his background.

Best,

Bill Simpson

[Dave Lowry]

Dear Mr. Feigenbaum,
The “dictionaries” for my jocular Spanish were a native speaker from Mexico City and a non-native graduate of the U. of Mexico with more than two decades of experience teaching the language.

Borrego is the Spanish word for “lamb.” How the use of the term is insulting is beyond me. I have ordered it, using that word, in restaurants in the US, Mexico, and Spain. If those attending me were insulted, they graciously concealed their outrage and brought me what I requested: lamb.
Contrary to your imputations, I have scant knowledge of Mexico’s regions, southern, poor, or otherwise. I do make my living as a restaurant critic, however, and these analogies come readily for me. In this case, though, you apparently missed the original post in which it was another reader who suggested the analogy, one to which I was merely responding and enlarging.

You make roughly half a dozen references to my “assumptions” on sundry topics. This is flattering. But I’m wagering most readers care less about my assumptions or your observations on same than they do about sharing facts and well-reasoned opinions.

I shall take to heart your admonition that I not consider myself different than others posting here—save for the singular distinction I have of being able to recite the lyrics of “Beyond the Sea” in English, Japanese, and the original French.

Cordially,