Originally Posted by
wmuromoto
Watatani and Yamada, in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (okay, people have said this book itself is not complete or infallible, but it's the best we have in terms of a compendium of Japanese koryu), holds the view that the problem is that the keizu (lineage) Watatani saw of Togakure-ryu appears to be at least partially fabricated. There's very little corroborating evidence for some of the listing of names, although it gets clear that, according to Takamatsu, he learned it from Toda Shinryuken (who died in Meiji 41 (that would be 1905?) at the age of 90 (do the math...how old was Takamatsu at that time?) ) and passed on the lineage to Hatsumi sensei.
If Watatani meant that the other branches listed in the keizu are being part of Togakure-ryû I can see his point that it's fabricated. But its not just a Togakure keizu, included are pieces of Kukishinden Happô Biken, Iga-ryû, Gyokko-ryû, Hakuun-ryû, Shinden Fudô-ryû , Kotô-ryû and Natori-ke. Togakure-ryû comes from Hakuun-ryû and Gyokko-ryû, almost all Iga-ryû styles listed in the BRHDJT say they came from Hakuun-ryû. The Togakure-ryû keizu is confusing as hell but if you translate it and turn it on its side it makes full sense. I cracked this "di-vinci code" with the help of Tanemura's chart in his 2 books.
Takamatsu was about 21 years old when Toda-sensei died if the math is correct. And no one please bring up the age argument that Takamatsu wasn't old enough, several other ryûha being taught to kids from their grandfathers and being giving kaiden at 16 or 20, etc. Takagi-ryû being one and others.
Originally Posted by
wmuromoto
Watatani writes that the lineage is based on the oral tradition of Shinryuken. Supposedly it goes back 34 generations, yes, but a lot of the names on the list are hard to verify; they may really be historical figures but there's little corroborating evidence that some of them actually did do a codified ninjutsu ryu; and that if it is to be believed, then the Togakure-ryu masters were responsible for the birth of the Iga and Koga traditions; there's some masters who actually are fictional characters out of pulp novels prevalant at the time; and so on. Some of the masters supposedly include Ise Saburo Yoshimori, a legendary follower of Minamoto Yoshitsune, Minamoto Hachiman Shichiro (both, BTW, are buke during the 1100s so the notion that ninja were downtrodden anti-samurai freedom fighters is kind of silly), Koga Taroubei Kozuna, Katayama Hoki No Kami Hisayasu (red flag: he's the founder of the Hoki-ryu iaijutsu and MAYBE related to Takeuchi Hisamori of the Takeuchi-ryu. I'm still not so sure of that possibility, however...), Momochi Sandayu and his children, Natori Heinai (or Hei-uchi?) and his children, and finally the Toda family. --At least, that's the lineage that was being put forth in public by Shinryuken.
34 generations is a lot to believe yes, early half is probably mostly legend as are other koryû but also since its ninjutsu not much documentation to go on either. Person believed responsible for the birth of Iga-ryû was Iga Heinaibei Yasukiyo around 1096 in the Eichô period. Person believed responsible for the birth of Kôga-ryû was Kôga Ômi-no-kami Kaneie (Mochizuki Saburô Kaneie) around 939. The Kôga founding isn't as clear as the Iga. This is also listed in BRHDJT and other sources including from Hatsumi-seseni and Tanemura and others.
The anti-samurai counter culture nonsense has been discussed to death and proven wrong years ago, why Hayes started that or put that in his books is a mystery to all of us. But we do know those who practiced the arts of ninjutsu were not in high regard and looked down on, although a high commodity.
Ise Saburô has ties to ninjutsu and is discussed in all the historical books on ninjutsu that I have. I see his name pop-up a lot but I haven't looked into him more then that.
Katayama Hôki-no-kami is listed in the Shinden Fudô-ryû portion of the keizu, again the keizu lists other connected ryûha which connections are before the founding of Togakure. One has to read the chart carefully to see this. Shinden Fudô-ryû being a bushi art, not ninjutsu.
Natori Heinai is part of the Natori-ke from the Kishû-han and is a branch responsible for saving the art from dying out according to Hatsumi-sensei.
In a previous thread quote from a old rec.maritalarts post where Ellis Amdur finds it hard to believe why Kumogakure-ryû is only in its 14th generation is funny since it was founded in the 1500's and not the 1100's as I assume he thought it was. If one researched the history (listed with Iga-ryû right in the BRHDJT under the Kôga-ryû section) one would see it comes from 17 previous generations of Iga-ryû as Hatsumi-sensei and Tanemura have also wrote about.
I think more research needs to be done before everyone goes off finalizing opions and claiming to be the "end all be all" on the topic.
Last edited by Shinobi; 17th November 2005 at 04:44.
Eric Weil
"Kuji first, Taijutsu last"