One-legged Stance

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

As always, research continues. Currently I am examining KEISHI-RYU kata for recognizable characteristics also found in traditional Korean sword method.
I was immediately drawn to the use of the "geum-gye dok-lib pal-sang-se" (one-legged posture with sword in high guard position) which is found in the first kata as an evasion to a shallow descending cut to the lower leg. I quickly went checking through various resources I have here and cannot find this method in any of my JSA books. This is all the more curious since the KEISHI-RYU kata were drawn from traditional Japanese arts.

Are there practitioners who use a one-legged stance in their own training who would want to speak to this?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Vile]

I have no idea of the purpose of the one legged stance in either of these schools (Kashima Shinden Jikishin Kage ryû is very elusive in its esoteric looking kata to me anyways ), but KSJKr and Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi ryû (http://www.koryu.com/photos/shoji1.html) both have one legged stance in their kata.

IIRC both have the stance after a cut: KSJKr practioners lift their leg up to their front (foot about knee high) during a cut sometimes (usually at the end of the kata) and SKKr practioners start with other leg up, like in the picture from koryu.com at the link above, and change their leg during a cut (also usually this seems to be the last cut in their kata).

[kenkyusha]

Kukishin Ryu and and Itto Ryu (by extension, Muto Ryu) also use similar kamae. I can't speak to any esoteric reasons for it.

Be well,
Jigme

[nicojo]

There is a one-legged waza in Araki Mujinsai ryu iaido, but I can't really tell you about it since I haven't learned it or anything about it. It is an unusual kata altogether that has this technique.

[gmanry]

The Bujinkan employs a one-legged kamae, derived from the Kukishin Ryu in its curriculum. It is typically an avoidance of follow through from a cut to tsune. The way I have seen it demonstrated is with the tachi braced to the outside hip/leg, allowing for more stability in deflecting the cut with the blade.
However, the leg is brought up to prevent the ankle being cut if the deflection should fail.

It does make more sense if someone is wearing armor than if somebody is not. If you don't have armor on, you would have a better chance of moving out of the way and just using gedan no kamae of some sort.

Typically I think this is more likely against naginata than against another swordsman, but I could be wrong. With the naginata you have a chance of seeing it before it is too late (unless the person is really precise and has excellent technique).

[gendzwil]

Originally Posted by gmanry

Typically I think this is more likely against naginata than against another swordsman, but I could be wrong. With the naginata you have a chance of seeing it before it is too late (unless the person is really precise and has excellent technique).

I know that in isshu-jiai with kendo vs atarashi naginata, sune-nuki-men is pretty common. Just lift your foot up and let the naginata pass underneath, attack the resulting open men. Not really a kamae though, just a transition.

[hyaku]

There is waza in the Kageryu called Sagi-ashi (heron leg).

In fundamentals lifting the leg high and tucking the knees high and upwards can assist in powering up a draw to a guard position from tate-hiza. Likewise a changing of the legs in a scissor like action powers a downward cut especially if Yoroi is worn.

I don't do leg avoidance. In our cuts up into the groin it is necessary to move "everything" out of the way.

[glad2bhere]

In our usage the one-legged stance can either be defensive (evasion) or offensive (to add power to a cut or thrust). I had become used to seeing the stance accomplished with a follow-up cut. However, in the kata that I am examining I was surprised that the follow-up was a straight thrust to the head. Not an easy target for a thrust, that.

BTW: I am checking around to find that list of arts that contributed to these forms. I know its around somewhere in this mess.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[gmanry]

I don't do leg avoidance. In our cuts up into the groin it is necessary to move "everything" out of the way.

I think that this is best. It may not always be possible though if you have lost control of the maai.

I know that in isshu-jiai with kendo vs atarashi naginata, sune-nuki-men is pretty common. Just lift your foot up and let the naginata pass underneath, attack the resulting open men. Not really a kamae though, just a transition.

From what I have seen in my Ryoen Ryu Naginatajutsu training (which could completely fill a whole thimble mind you) the cuts to tsune don't really "pass through." They are not power cuts, but are more like precision slices that hook upwards under the tsune of the yoroi. Which means if you try to enter, you may cut yourself if your angling isn't just so. That gets back to the move the whole body mentioned above. Move, lift leg, take advantageous angle if foot is still attached.

Not really a kamae though, just a transition.

I see your point. However, from the perspective I have been taught, there really are no "kamae," it is really all just transition. Not that I can do that yet, of course. I just repeat it to myself so I can feel wise...

[hyaku]

I don't do leg avoidance. In our cuts up into the groin it is necessary to move "everything" out of the way.

Originally Posted by gmanry

I think that this is best. It may not always be possible though if you have lost control of the maai.

With a 3.8 I have no problem with ma-ai. The other guy with a 2.3 does.

Bruce ours is transitional too.

[glad2bhere]

".........
The police forms called Keishicho Ryu Gekkan Kata were developed in 1886 by the swordsmen assigned to instruct the forces the following swordsmen were instructors during these years.

Okumura Sakonda and Tokino Seikishiro (Jikishinkage Ryu)

Ueda Umanosuke (Kyoshin Meichi Ryu)

Neigishi Shingoro, Shibae Umpachiro, and
Watanabe Noboru (Shindo Munen Ryu)

Matsuzaki Namishiro (Shinkage Ryu)

Shingai Tadatsu (Tamiya Ryu)

Takao Tesso ( Tetchu Ryu)

Mitsuhashi Kan’ichiro (Togun Ryu)

The result was the 10 kumitachi forms. In addition, Keishicho-ryu also developed five Iaido forms whose material proceeds from the following disciplines.

1.) Maegoshi (Asayama Ichiden Ryu)
2.) Musogaeshi (Shindo Munen Ryu)
3.) Mawarinuki (Tamiya Ryu)
4.) Migi no Teki (Kyoshin Meichi Ryu)
5.) Shiho (Tatsumi Ryu)
....................................................................."

I furnish this information only to help frame the contributions of others and apologize that over the years I have lost track of the original authorship of this material. Certainly I must report that this information did not originate with me. However, if anyone recognizes the syntax perhaps it would be helpful to share the suspected authorship, yes?

BTW: I know I opened this thread about the One-legged Stance however a second observation come to mind in a related sense.

I feel safe in assuming that JSA have a "short (so do se) stance" or "descended stance" most often seen in KSA as dropping below an attack to deliver a "ho ri begi" or mid-section cut. The hallmark I note is that sometimes the knee touches (grounded) and sometimes it does not (about a fist-width off the ground). I have been researching to identify if KSA regard these as variants of the same posture or separate/individual postures, each in its own right. Do the JSA regard these as one in the same or different? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[gmanry]

With a 3.8 I have no problem with ma-ai. The other guy with a 2.3 does.

LOL, I forgot that you use an I-beam for a sword. For us lesser mortals, then. I also understand that if you have lost control of ma-ai then you are more than likely going to be dead against a skilled opponent, but there is always the desperate effort and luck.

[FastEd]

Hey Bruce,
I take it the one leg stance is in the Keishicho Ryu Gekkan Kata, and not the Keshi Ryu Iai Kata (at least they way I practiced it)? Do you video or refereance material for the gekkan kata?

cheers
Ed

[gendzwil]

Originally Posted by gmanry

However, from the perspective I have been taught, there really are no "kamae," it is really all just transition.

Really? I mean, I understand the concept of being fluid and all that jazz, but when you see two people standing with swords waist level aimed at each other's eyes, looking for some opening... well, that's chudan (in kendo terms). If you see someone standing there with their tsuba next to their ear, that's hasso. Now if they attack katsugi-men, then we can say a brief transition to hasso from chudan. But in my book, if you stay in roughly the same position for an appreciable length of time, prepared to attack or defend from that position, then it's a kamae.

[glad2bhere]

Originally Posted by FastEd

Hey Bruce,
I take it the one leg stance is in the Keishicho Ryu Gekkan Kata, and not the Keshi Ryu Iai Kata (at least they way I practiced it)? Do you video or refereance material for the gekkan kata?

cheers
Ed

You are correct on all counts. The One-legged stance is only in the first 2-person kata. I don't think I have seen it in any of the other 9 kata. I have not seen the Iai kata.

The material I have is a copy of an article from a Japanese magazine of some years ago. Wish I could find a name and date on it. I know I am not giving much to go on.

Best Wishes,

Bruce