Red and White Obi

[Gary Wado]

Training in traditional Wado for the last twenty years, I have never come across a Sensei who has a red and white Obi.

I know that it tends to be worn by senior grade Judoka "Brian Jacks" from UK for instance, but recently I have seen some footage of Isshinryu Karateka wearing them.

Can any one explain the origin of the red and white stripes and why it appears to be more "senior" than a plain black belt?

Gary

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

[ryukyu2000]

Gary-san:

Within the Okinawan systems, it is common for Kyoshi grade's to wear a red and white belt in certain systems. I don't think it is viewed as 'more senior' than their dan ranks, just a designation within their respective systems of what their ranked individual wears. Much like it is common within many Japanese systems to add a stripe for each yudansha grade, wereas on Okinawa there are the two stripes, four stripes and six stripes in certain systems for very senior yudansha grades (6th through 10th dan).

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY USA

[Gary Wado]

Thanks Andy,

So if I have understood you correctly the more red and white stripes a
"Kyoshi grade" belt has the more senior he is?

Gary

[ryukyu2000]

Gary:

I should have been clearer. To my knowledge, there is no equation between the number of panels and rank. The number of panels is likely due to the length in the manufacturing process and the maker.

If you do a search under ranks and belts, I think you will turn up a host of variances between belt types, Japan, Okinawa, etc. In the US, there are a host of different belt types, possibilities seem endless (similar to the plethora of titles).

Regards,

Andy Morris

[Kenpo5th]

Hmmm, when I trained in Wado, under Sensei's Mike Sawyer and Cory Schafer in Florida, 3rd Dans would wear a Renshi belt (back side black, front half red/half white split horizontally) backwards, that is with the black side out, 4th Dans would wear it with the white side on top and facing out and 5th Dans would wear it red side on top and facing out. Just my experience... I personally haven't seen any other Wado instructors do this, and I know I don't, but I thought it was pretty cool

[shoshinkan]

I always thought that the Shihan certification was appropiate (and seperate) as follows -

5/6th dan - Renshi Red/Black belt or black/1 bar

7/8th dan - Kyoshi Red/White belt or black 2 bars

9/10th dan - Hanshi Red belt or black/3 bars

With the wearing of the 'red belts' for special/official occasions and the wearing of simple black belt with gold bars for general training.

5th dan denoting the highest technical rank, ie full knowledge of the ryu.

Of course I understand that different groups work in different ways but is this not the 'general' accepted method within karate.

[Duanew]

As others have already stated it all depends on the association/style, etc. Wether they are traditional or americanized. In my association 5 and 6th dan wear a black belt with one gold stripe, 7 & 8 two gold stripes, 9 & 10 three gold stripes. A red and white belt is given with their Shihan certificate (7th).
From then they have an option of wearing either.
A few years back we had one member who would not wear his black belt with two gold stripes because he was afraid people would think he was a nidan..might have been something to do with his technique...he didn't last long in the association.

DuaneW
Some change when they see the light. Others change when they feel the heat. Some require blunt force trauma.

[Blackwood]

My organization has black for 1 through 6, adding a gold bar with each rank.

7th and 8th wear red and white

9th and 10th wear solid red.

[Texasmic]

My organization doesn't wear belts except for kyu ranks.

We do have yudansha rank, we just don't wear the belts.

Belts tend to get people strutting around with their thumbs hooked in their belts telling you how much more they know than you because they have more stripes or bars or happy face patches on their belt than you do.

The point is what do you know, what can you do.

Rank is irrelevant.

You can see some one move and listen to their ideas on technique and tell whether they are "full of it" or not. I've seen lot's of people with high ranks from even "reputable systems" who don't know squat, and move like they have no idea what they are doing, and it is obvious they spend their training sessions talking.

[Chris McLean]

My understanding is you continue to wear a solid black belt as long as your training hard and still competing. When you put aside the hard core training as you age and move into just teaching then you put on your red and white belt at the appropirate time and rank. It should not be worn in competition.

[armanox]

Indeed I must agree with the above. All of the people that I know that bear a Red and White belt refuse to compete in tournaments - argueing that they rank too high to be entering in such things, and that it would be unfair to the competitors.

[Texasmic]

Originally Posted by armanox

Indeed I must agree with the above. All of the people that I know that bear a Red and White belt refuse to compete in tournaments - argueing that they rank too high to be entering in such things, and that it would be unfair to the competitors.

Yeah, that's why I don't compete too... yeah, yeah that's it, I too good. LOL

Actually I always think of those belts when I see the red and white reflector tape that is sometimes on the bumpers of big trucks.

[shoshinkan]

Originally Posted by armanox

Indeed I must agree with the above. All of the people that I know that bear a Red and White belt refuse to compete in tournaments - argueing that they rank too high to be entering in such things, and that it would be unfair to the competitors.

cant they enter the 'masters' division LOL, whatever the hell that is eh ?

[Gary Wado]

Thanks very much everyone for the info. Really good.

Interesting that a lot of the replies came from Karateka who train in Okinawan Ryu and are based in the US.

There is obviously a strong US/Okinawan Ryu connection understandable due to your Joint history I suppose.

In the Europe, particularly within Wado Ryu/Kai styles, as far as I know, red and white obi are not worn, even by the most senior Hanshi.

For example the following are recognised (in Europe at least) as amongst the most "venerated" in their "ryu".

Hironori Ohtsuka (II) 10th Dan - Wadoryu Karatedo Renmei
Toru Arakawa 8th Dan - JKF Wado Kai
Katsumi Hakoishi 8th Dan - JKF Wado Kai
Tatsuo Suzuki 8th Dan - WIKF
Masafumi Shiomitsu* 8th Dan - Wado Ryu Karate-do Academy

All of which wear solid black Obi (*with the exception of Shiomitsu sensei who, when the last time I trained with him, was wearing a white belt).

All of which have no stripes or marks etc. I guess its the less is more thing!

Also interesting that, apart from the son of the founder of the "Ryu", no instructor (to my knowledge), within the Japan Karate Federation Wado Kai (or other Major Wado Group), has a rank above 8th Dan. Another difference perhaps between the Okinawan Ryu and the US?

If anyone knows different please advise.

Gary

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

[Blackwood]

We have a single red belt in North America, he is Okinawan and has been teaching in the US for about 35 years. He is a 10th Dan, been training under his teacher for over 50 years and trained under Shinpan Gusukuma before that. The only other 10th Dan in the style is his teacher, the Grandmaster in Okinawa. There are dozen or so 7th Dan in the US that have all been training for over 25 years with the Hanshi.

We had a number of 9th and 8th Dan from around the world that came to celebrate 30 years of the Hanshi teaching at his current dojo.