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Thread: Togakure Ryu. Hmmm... What about...

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    Default Togakure Ryu. Hmmm... What about...

    Okay, I have a few questions.

    We know that people called shinobi "Ninja" existed. We know of historically Koga Ryu, Iga Ryu Fuma Ryu etc. That these existed right?

    Lets look at this quote from Doctor Friday:

    In any event, there is NO extant documentation for ninjutsu ryuha
    (including the documents that Hatsumi Masaaki claims to possess) that
    independent experts (historians or authorities on diplomatics) have been
    able to authenticate as dating from prior to the late 19th century.
    So even though we KNOW Some ryu existed, he says there are no scrolls out there? No Densho?

    So can we assume it was common for these Ryu NOT to write things down?

    Is it possible that these arts may have been passed down in the form of Kuden? Just like we have been taught?

    What about the idea that MOST people in Japan could not read or write until very recently? That In the olden times only the highest class could read and write? If this is true and it seems to be, then of what use would writing things down be if people could not read it and also most likely the old Soke of these ryu might not have been able to write anyway!

    So if we KNOW Ninja existed [and we can not find accoring to Dr. Friday] any documents for ANY of them, then I do not see how NOT having documents for Togakure ryu casts any doubt on its lineage...

    We also know that it seems like most ninja were samurai (meaning job title) and Ninjutsu was was used by these people when their job required "Ninjutsu" those people who did this job were called Shinobi. So we can imagine that ninjutsu would be a smaller collection of material seeing as it is specialized and not general.

    So maybe a Ninjutsu "ryu" was not a ryu like we think of with kukishin with all of these aspects to it and densho (being more general and broder in scope) maybe a Ninjutsu ryu was passing down specific ways to deal with specialized situations favored by specific clan. meaning everyone had their preferred way of dealing with these situations and these things were passed down.

    And, I believe in the form of kuden. You could imagine it, telling someone under your wing somethig like, "okay, in this situation we handle it like this or that, so remember this. Or "we have found it works best to do this like this" or whatever.

    When you get to the time of Takamstu sensei, you can imagine Toda sharing with him these ways of doing things, tips, techniques, strategy etc.. And when he felt he told him all of the important things passing that now onto him. maybe saying something like, okay now you know what is important and take that on with you into the future.

    You can imagine then that wanting to keep this alive, Takamtsu Sensei choosing to write it down, and also adding some things to it (which as the Soke he has every right to do) from related Ninjutsu found in kukishin ryu etc.And passing this on to Hatsumi Sensei and Fukamoto Sensei.

    We KNOW that many "koryu" had a kuden history or were founded by "tengu" and the like and when we add that there are no documents for ANY Ninja Ryu according to friday and the fact most of these people could not read or write, I feel fine with what I have been taught in regards to the history of these schools.

    Thoughts?
    Richard Ray Dojo-Cho
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    Wasn't "Bansenshukai" authentically 17th century?
    Achim Steigert
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    bansenshukai isn't a specific ryu's densho it's a combination for ryu in both iga and koka
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
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    True... good point.
    And appearantly "Bansenshukai" was more likely some kind of encyclopaedia for samurai to gain knowledge about what we call ninja today.

    I guess it's normal that a community/guild/whatever like "ninjutsu Ryū-ha" lacked writen documentation.
    A secret society like them couldn't afford those scrolls to be discovered. So I guess it's all "kuden"...
    Achim Steigert
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    Shodan - translated: beginners grade

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    Quote Originally Posted by MakotoDojo
    What about the idea that MOST people in Japan could not read or write until very recently? That In the olden times only the highest class could read and write? If this is true and it seems to be, then of what use would writing things down be if people could not read it and also most likely the old Soke of these ryu might not have been able to write anyway!

    So if we KNOW Ninja existed [and we can not find accoring to Dr. Friday] any documents for ANY of them, then I do not see how NOT having documents for Togakure ryu casts any doubt on its lineage...

    We also know that it seems like most ninja were samurai (meaning job title) and Ninjutsu was was used by these people when their job required "Ninjutsu" those people who did this job were called Shinobi. So we can imagine that ninjutsu would be a smaller collection of material seeing as it is specialized and not general.

    So maybe a Ninjutsu "ryu" was not a ryu like we think of with kukishin with all of these aspects to it and densho (being more general and broder in scope) maybe a Ninjutsu ryu was passing down specific ways to deal with specialized situations favored by specific clan. meaning everyone had their preferred way of dealing with these situations and these things were passed down.

    And, I believe in the form of kuden. You could imagine it, telling someone under your wing somethig like, "okay, in this situation we handle it like this or that, so remember this. Or "we have found it works best to do this like this" or whatever.

    When you get to the time of Takamstu sensei, you can imagine Toda sharing with him these ways of doing things, tips, techniques, strategy etc.. And when he felt he told him all of the important things passing that now onto him. maybe saying something like, okay now you know what is important and take that on with you into the future.

    You can imagine then that wanting to keep this alive, Takamtsu Sensei choosing to write it down, and also adding some things to it (which as the Soke he has every right to do) from related Ninjutsu found in kukishin ryu etc.And passing this on to Hatsumi Sensei and Fukamoto Sensei.

    We KNOW that many "koryu" had a kuden history or were founded by "tengu" and the like and when we add that there are no documents for ANY Ninja Ryu according to friday and the fact most of these people could not read or write, I feel fine with what I have been taught in regards to the history of these schools.

    Thoughts?
    It is a matter of fact that many of the "ryuha" that we know of where not part of the system of ryuha until much later. A father teaching a son is not a ryuha. A ryuha is a way of keeping control over a large number of students and making sure they did not use the name without permission or qualification. It is as much politcal as a way of teaching.

    Case in point, the Katori Shinto ryu claims to be 69 generations old and date at least far back as the ninth century. The reality seems to be that the tradition of teaching people who to kill others at the Kashima shrine goes back at least that long, but until the 16th century it was just taught from father to son and a few other people. No need for copyright or control of the name.

    It is my belief that the Togakure tradition probably existed since Daisuke Nishina had to flee after abandoning his lord and father and fleeing to Iga. I do not think he set up a ryuha system at that stage. I think that there might have been a few generations where at most a few techniques were taught to the next generation. I think the most useful aspect of the story of Nishina was keeping the next generation believing that they came from better stock and could get there again. I think that maybe this was a factor in the late Kamakura period when the things we know happenend in the Iga region led to the formation of what we know today as the ninja.

    But it is a fact that many "ryuha" were created generations after the supposed founder had passed away. People gave credit to those that gave them the ability to pass along information even without them going through the form of creating a ryuha when they were alive.

    I hope this makes sense. It has been a long day filled with many toasts by well- meaning people.

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    I hope this makes sense. It has been a long day filled with many toasts by well- meaning people.
    __________________
    Don Roley
    yes,

    thank you.
    Richard Ray Dojo-Cho
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    This kuden art argument has come up before, but I have some problems with it.

    Even if Mr Toda taught 6 ryuha to Mr Takamatsu orally (i.e. without writing down or passing on scrolls of techniques), wouldn't he have given him some certification to say that he was menkyo kaiden and soke?

    See what I'm getting at? I'm aware that some arts in Japan like tea, flower arrangine etc. can be passed on by kuden. But despite that, there is still a verifiable history of the schools existence. How would you know who was licensed and who was the iemoto in each generation without at least *some* papers?

    Is there any documentaion or certification in existence that was given by Mr Toda to Mr Takamatsu? Even if it's only for Shinden Fudo Ryu, that would go a long way to putting these doubts to rest.
    Paul Zelios

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuoshu
    Even if Mr Toda taught 6 ryuha to Mr Takamatsu orally (i.e. without writing down or passing on scrolls of techniques), wouldn't he have given him some certification to say that he was menkyo kaiden and soke?
    Who is to say he didn't? The certificates Toda gave Takamatsu would not neccesarily have been given to anyone else. Especially with the losses that we know happened to Takamatsu's personal items. Maybe Hatsumi has them, and maybe he was not given them.

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    Is there any documentaion or certification in existence that was given by Mr Toda to Mr Takamatsu? Even if it's only for Shinden Fudo Ryu, that would go a long way to putting these doubts to rest.
    Well, would it really ? Looking at how the threads have developed Im not so sure.

    The believers would of course claim a success, but the non-believers would still not accept it. First of all a copy of it would have to be displayed on the internet. Second, such a paper could be fake, you would have to somehow get it verified by a third party and compare it to other handwritten objects by Toda. Whats the probability that that´s going to happen ?

    Regards /

    Bujin
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    Toda! You seek Toda! Take you to him, I will.
    Last edited by kuoshu; 3rd October 2006 at 13:26.
    Paul Zelios

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    Quote Originally Posted by skuggvarg
    Well, would it really ? Looking at how the threads have developed Im not so sure.

    The believers would of course claim a success, but the non-believers would still not accept it. First of all a copy of it would have to be displayed on the internet. Second, such a paper could be fake, you would have to somehow get it verified by a third party and compare it to other handwritten objects by Toda. Whats the probability that that´s going to happen ?

    Regards /

    Bujin
    better ask hatsumi about that. but i doubt he will, with all those articles saying that he's wary of the 'net. the third party verification could be possible...
    Griff Lockfield

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    Quote Originally Posted by MakotoDojo
    Okay, I have a few questions.

    We know that people called shinobi "Ninja" existed. We know of historically Koga Ryu, Iga Ryu Fuma Ryu etc. That these existed right?

    Lets look at this quote from Doctor Friday:



    So even though we KNOW Some ryu existed, he says there are no scrolls out there? No Densho?

    So can we assume it was common for these Ryu NOT to write things down?

    Is it possible that these arts may have been passed down in the form of Kuden? Just like we have been taught?

    What about the idea that MOST people in Japan could not read or write until very recently? That In the olden times only the highest class could read and write? If this is true and it seems to be, then of what use would writing things down be if people could not read it and also most likely the old Soke of these ryu might not have been able to write anyway!

    So if we KNOW Ninja existed [and we can not find accoring to Dr. Friday] any documents for ANY of them, then I do not see how NOT having documents for Togakure ryu casts any doubt on its lineage...

    We also know that it seems like most ninja were samurai (meaning job title) and Ninjutsu was was used by these people when their job required "Ninjutsu" those people who did this job were called Shinobi. So we can imagine that ninjutsu would be a smaller collection of material seeing as it is specialized and not general.

    So maybe a Ninjutsu "ryu" was not a ryu like we think of with kukishin with all of these aspects to it and densho (being more general and broder in scope) maybe a Ninjutsu ryu was passing down specific ways to deal with specialized situations favored by specific clan. meaning everyone had their preferred way of dealing with these situations and these things were passed down.

    And, I believe in the form of kuden. You could imagine it, telling someone under your wing somethig like, "okay, in this situation we handle it like this or that, so remember this. Or "we have found it works best to do this like this" or whatever.

    When you get to the time of Takamstu sensei, you can imagine Toda sharing with him these ways of doing things, tips, techniques, strategy etc.. And when he felt he told him all of the important things passing that now onto him. maybe saying something like, okay now you know what is important and take that on with you into the future.

    You can imagine then that wanting to keep this alive, Takamtsu Sensei choosing to write it down, and also adding some things to it (which as the Soke he has every right to do) from related Ninjutsu found in kukishin ryu etc.And passing this on to Hatsumi Sensei and Fukamoto Sensei.

    We KNOW that many "koryu" had a kuden history or were founded by "tengu" and the like and when we add that there are no documents for ANY Ninja Ryu according to friday and the fact most of these people could not read or write, I feel fine with what I have been taught in regards to the history of these schools.

    Thoughts?
    Is that exactly what Dr. Friday said? In the email he wrote me he had written there were no documents for Togakure Ryu that were that old. If he did in fact say something else then he is in fact wrong. There are people in possesion of documents that come from way before the 19th century.

    I do not have my notes in front of me because I am out of town but there is a gentleman in Japan that has shown densho and documents from his family in the Koga region that go back centuries. I think his name is Watanabe Toshinobu? He even has copies of contracts and descriptions of missions undertaken by his forebears.
    Atsumi Nakashima is another man that has copies of very old densho. There are pictures of them in Ninja To Ninjutsu.
    If things were never written down then how does one explain the Momochi family in Mie? They still have some, but not all because it was sold off, documents that detail their ancestor's history and what deeds they were doing. The documents they sold off are still around. Sounds like someone was writing something down then. And how does one explain all the stuff that is at the Iga Ninja Museum in Mie?

    Also I hear a lot of people rationalizing the lack of records because these super agents were unable to read and write. Let me get this straight, these people were out engaging in espionage: working behind the scenes, able to fake documents to cross manned borders, assume dual identities, and gather intelligence all the while not being able to read or write? Is there anything as romantic as an illiterate spy ?
    Christopher Moon

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    Makoto

    In answer to your question.

    There is a logical problem there that is not addressed by asserting that its "kuden."

    Mainly that establishing that the tradition is largely oral in no way provides any proof, because if that were the case then essentially the support simply does not exist.

    Which brings us directly back to where we started--ie. what is claimed and what can be supported.

    Its not that there was not and is not oral tradition---its what exactly can we actually do with claims based upon "oral" teaching?

    If the bottom line here is "its true because I say it true" then how is that any different than a person saying "its a lie because I say its a lie?"

    Logically, its a problem.
    Chris Thomas

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    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    Maybe this page will explain a little about this problem. BTW, it is written by a historian (yes, a PhD in Japanese History and also a ninpo practioner).

    Sorry forgot to add the link
    http://www.ninpo.org/ninpohistory/ninpohistory.html
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisMoon
    Is that exactly what Dr. Friday said? In the email he wrote me he had written there were no documents for Togakure Ryu that were that old. If he did in fact say something else then he is in fact wrong. There are people in possesion of documents that come from way before the 19th century.
    Yes, this was a direct copy paste from a forum thread. Found Here:
    http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=51793


    Also I hear a lot of people rationalizing the lack of records because these super agents were unable to read and write. Let me get this straight, these people were out engaging in espionage: working behind the scenes, able to fake documents to cross manned borders, assume dual identities, and gather intelligence all the while not being able to read or write? Is there anything as romantic as an illiterate spy ?
    "Japanese society, largely illiterate at the beginning of the Edo period (1603-1867) had become one of the most literate societies in the world by the end of the Edo period.7 Local feudal lords established fief schools for samurai, “Japanese warriors” and thus every samurai was literate. Ordinary farmers, craftsmen, and merchants sent their children to the terakoya, “temple schools” for basic knowledge, writing, reading, and counting. By the end of the Edo period, the attendance was high in urban areas such as in Edo (86%), though it was much lower in isolated rural areas."

    Source:
    http://www.usjp.org/jpeducation_en/jpEdSystem_en.html
    I am not a historian, I also have no stake in making people belive that Takamatsu's Ninpo lineage is old. I train in Genbukan martial arts, not Togakure Ryu, besides all of the lineages Tanemura Soke is Soke of have paper trails. Although I personally don't need them.

    I believe my teacher personally, and could not care less if anyone else believes our lineage or not. It just doesn't matter to me at all...

    With this thread, I was just positing some ideas sparked by Friday's statement.

    Regards,
    Richard Ray Dojo-Cho
    Rick Ray's Warrior Arts Academy
    Bujinkan Makoto Dojo
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