Seminar Review / Dan Harden

[Chris Li]

Originally Posted by Dan Harden

Tatamai and honmi is more or less this

Not to be picky, but "Tatemae" (建前, lit. "facade"）and "Honne" (本音, lit. "true voice or sound") .

Best,

Chris

Thanks Chris

Dan

Originally Posted by Chris Li

In any case, I agree with Peter, posts should stand under their own weight, unless you are trying to refute a specific factual statement within a posting. Attacking the credibility of the author of a post rather than dealing with the issues contained within the posting itself is, IMO, far too common a tactic.

Best,

Chris

Good point again
I think you and Peter hit the nail on the head.
When all that many guys have is their "art" box and experience in that box and not much else to show- then they judge others by their "art box." Its the only way they know how to think and function. They cannot explain their every effort being taken apart any other way. It just doesn't fit in their "art" box. Further still, if it is done so with fluid relaxed power. In the discussions of internal skills when they have nothing to add they resort to this kind of nonsense.

Cheers
Dan

[Arman]

I am not one to get into dissecting all the assumptions that are flying around here, on both sides.

I would just say that 1) Jim's post was certainly calling Dan out. Ok. So what? Which leads to point number 2) Any of us that post on the internet in any kind of authoritative way on a particular subject should not get too upset by being called out. Isn't that one of the purposes of a public forum like E-budo? To stand behind your point of view? Asking for credentials is not so crazy. Seems like we do it a lot on the forums.

Jim asked. Dan clarified (to a point). Unless they want to continue this on their own privately, I think this thread is used up.

Arman Partamian

[Nathan Scott]

Guys, I actually am out of town right now. Sorry George, I thought about letting you guys know, but it is typically well behaved here.

I have to make this short, because I have to get going and typing on this Japanese computer is killing me.

Having read the whole thread, it appears to me that there have been valid points made in regards to this `call out` (where is the quotes button on this thing?). All things considered, it seems that this thread has served a purpose. On the other hand, I don`t think anything else useful can come of it, so I`ll lock it after this.

A couple of points I would make:

1) Does Mr. Goldberg know you intended on posting his comments about someone else on the internet? My guess is no, which makes it pretty rude. On the other hand, I learned a long time ago that what you say in open seminars to people you don`t know can go anywhere, and when someone asks you what you think of someone (or something similar), it is either because they are a student of theirs or they have some other reason why they are asking, and as such the response always seems to get back to them. So I figure that`s kind of what you get for answering such questions to non-students (I usually just say `I don`t know`)

(I`ll write more later - gotta go///)

[Nathan Scott]

Anyway,

2)　The point I was trying to make in the posting guidelines is that, if you are going to post opinions, be prepared to back up your opinions with experience and/or ranking (which gives an indication as to the level of initiation a person is supposed to have). On the other hand, no one is forced to disclose such facts if they would rather not say publicly, and there are valid reasons why someone might not wish to publisize their membership in a particular art.

However, if you DON`T choose to be forthcoming about your experience and background, don`t be surprised if others start ignoring your posts or even treating you like a troll. I put up that guidline as a headsup to those who just like to blabber to see their name on the internet, or to play devil`s advocate on every subject that comes up. But I don`t believe we have a right to demand credentials from someone unless we are thinking of joining their dojo.

##

I do appreciate that the posters that followed the opening post attempted to keep the peace right off the bat. There are definitely better ways to handle something like credential debates, and if it wasn`t for the quality of the follow up replies, I would have just deleted the thread.

BTW, I`ll be back from Japan on the 13th, and won`t be using these crazy computers after this post, so ya`ll behave!

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

Mr. Sorrentino, PM'd me and asked that I post his response to the question I raised in my first post. Since I did raise the question, I'll post this last follow-up to this locked thread:

For the record, at his seminar, Goldberg-sensei said to me in front of several people (Steve Kotev and Tim Andersen, to name two) that I should feel free to post his comments about Dan Harden. In fact, I sent Goldberg-sensei a draft of my review before posting it to this forum. Goldberg-sensei explicitly approved. If possible, would you please share this information on the locked thread?

Moving on...

Work sent me to Boston for a few days. Before I left for Boston, I contacted Dan Harden and asked if he'd meet me. I said I'd like to start learning the internal stuff. Once in Boston, I met Dan at my hotel after work one day and we walked over to the Commons.

I ended up learning a lot of things. One is that Dan is a great guy. Working out with him for the short time I had was a pleasure. I went back and forth from, "Okay how did you do that" to laughing. Most of the time I forgot I was even standing in the Boston Commons.

Two is that I just couldn't push him over. And let me tell -- that was a very disconcerting feeling. I tried pushing with both hands on his chest, tried pulling him sideways using one of his arms, and then placing a hand on the side of his head and pushing. He just stood there relaxed. I don't know how to explain some of what I felt there. Part of it was just like pushing and nothing was budging. Almost like putting your hand on a wall, leaning into it, pushing, and it's just there not moving, but not nearly as hard or unyielding as a wall's surface. And parts of it I could feel that I'd lost my own balance as I started to push. In those instances, I was pushing and Dan was moving his center in such a way that he knew where I was losing my balance or what foot held most of my weight.

It was an eye opening display of some of what he can do. I say some because I also got to feel a small portion of the power he can generate. Another example of this relaxed power was that he held out both hands and asked me to throw him in a judo type throw. I grabbed both arms and that was as far as I got. There were no openings. I never got to the tsukuri, or fit, because I couldn't even get kuzushi. In fact, there was a kuzushi but it was on me. If you've ever seen some of these sayings, "keep weight underside", "extend ki", "keep one point", well, I got to experience them first hand. Dan also showed me the "push out exercise" where I had hold of him but couldn't step forward. Although I didn't feel like I was overly weighted down, I still couldn't take a step. My feet just felt rooted to the ground.

The no-inch punch was amazing. And yes, there was no distance but the force was definitely there. I wouldn't say it felt exactly like a punch, which is more of a percussive feel. No, this was more like a ball of energy/power hitting me and shockwaves vibrating out from where it entered my body. Next thing I know, I'm picking myself up off the ground a few feet away.

All the while, Dan is explaining how all of it is done. He was open and willing to share information on what he was doing and how it was done. He showed me some exercises to do and I tried some of them. Try is a good word. It'll take some time doing them, especially the hanmi. LOL. But in the short time I was there, I will say that they definitely helped.

The stuff Dan is doing is good stuff. I wish I'd been able to visit his dojo and meet everyone else, but I'm hoping that my next visit, I'll be able to do that.

[Ron Tisdale]

Thanks for the review Mark! It was also nice seeing you again this weekend.

Best,
Ron

Originally Posted by Jim Sorrentino

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the review! The next time you're in the DC area, please let me know --- maybe you can stop by the dojo and show me some of what you're working on --- unless Dan swore you to secrecy.

Hello Jim,
I'd be a very poor example of anything. It's all new to me. But the offer is appreciated. I hope that you get a chance to meet Dan because he can show and explain things way better than I ever could.

Thanks,
Mark

[Tim Mailloux]

Dan,
I finally got around to reading the thread on AikiWeb, what a waste of time that was. I really respect the way you handled yourself. I look forward to finally meeting & training with you when your schedule clears up.

Tim

Tim

I try not to pay attention too closely when people start lashing out. It just means they ran out of anything substantive to say. But, thanks for noticing.

The net is a wierd place VS face to face or hand to hand. It's like the fellow you wrote me about and what he thinks meeting and knowing me and then.....this ...uhm...stuff you read on the net....oyh! The funny thing is what often happens when you do meet those who didn't even like you on the net.


Cheers
Dan

[Nathan Scott]

I've ended up merging a new thread about Dan Harden with the existing seminar thread which was apparently an excuse to call out Dan on his experience and credentials. I though that locking this thread after it ran its course would be the end of it, but apparently a personal dispute on Aiki Web is being taken here for some reason.

Whether the questions are reasonable or not, an answer has already been provided publicly. It's time to move on, or take the discussion to PM/Emails (or back to Aiki Web). The rest of us don't need it here. Each posting should be evaluated based on what you know of the contributor. If you have issues with a contributor, or you feel they aren't being forthcoming about their ranks or formal training, then just don't read their posts anymore. But unless someone has something factual, relevant, and/or non-inflamatory to add, this subject and thread is done.

XXOO,

[Jim Sorrentino]

Greetings All,

Unfortunately, I unwittingly brought Dan's reputation into question. I regret that, and I apologize to Dan for doing so.

You may read the full text at AikiWeb, at
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17397

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino

[Nathan Scott]

Since Jim revived this thread and posted a link to a post at aikiweb, I posted a reply to this subject to the thread at Aikiweb.

Following is the content of my post:

Hi all,

I have a feeling this subject will never be fully resolved. However, since Jim posted a link to this topic over on an old thread at e-budo, I decided to contact the North American DR AJJ Kodokai Headquarters and obtain permission from their Secretary to post their perspective regarding these inquiries into Dan's past involvement with the Kodokai. I post the following in hopes that this topic might someday be laid to rest, and that Dan's methods will eventually be judged based on their own merit, rather than on assumptions from unsubstantiated rumors about his background.

Again, I must stress that the following statements are my opinions. Questions 1 and 2: Dan began training with Kiyama in the late 1980's. Dan received some number of rank certificates in DR from Kiyama and/or Roy acting under Kiyama's direction. Question 3: Kiyama and Dan eventually ended their training relationship after some time, perhaps about 9 years, for reasons that remain private, and Dan left the Kodokai. Kiyama declared Dan "hamon", and now says of Dan that he "does not know this person." Roy, as Kiyama's student, backs up Kiyama.

Late 1980's? Yonezawa Katsumi left for Germany in 1988, at which time Kiyama Sensei was given control of North America. Goldberg Sensei opened his New York State dojo in 1991. If Dan received any ranking from either Kiyama Sensei or Goldberg Sensei, then it is something that has not been recorded in the record books here in America or in Japan.

Daito-ryu is known for being extremely anal about record keeping, and the Kodokai is no exception. The Secretary in fact looked through all the ranking and enrollment books over the past 37 years in North America, and stated that there is no mention of Dan Harden's name anywhere. What that means is that Dan did not ever train at the NA Headquarters dojo under Kiyama Sensei; did not ever travel to Japan to train with the Japanese Shihan; and was not ever registered as a member of the art. That being said, membership is only offered once a kyu rank of 6th or above has been issued, so it is possible to train in a Kodokai dojo for a limited amount of time and not be a member of the art. Only limited information is taught to non-members, and Kiyama Sensei in fact often mixes in old judo techniques and principles during training with non-members (or as warmup techniques) in order to limit the amount of Kodokai teachings that are distributed outside the "gates". Regardless, Kiyama Sensei's exposure to Daito-ryu was strictly from the Kodokai line up until about 1995.

Kiyama Sensei has always lived on the West Coast - not the East Coast. Goldberg Sensei is the East Coast Representative, and coordinates training activities for the East Coast. He sometimes hosts open seminars on the East Coast in which Kiyama Sensei is invited to teach, and where non-members are allowed to train. Training records for activities on the East Coast are retained by Goldberg Sensei, so the NA Headquarters is not able to state what extent Dan trained there, or for how long. However, Dan's name was brought up to Kiyama Sensei ca. 2002, and his response was "Who?". Kiyama Sensei is not upset with Dan, nor did not have a falling out. It was not a spiteful statement, he simply did not know his name.

He was also not issued "hamon" (expulsion), because he was never registered as a member of the art. You cannot expel someone who is not a member. The Kodokai simply does not appreciate Dan's implying a deeper relationship with them than what really existed.

While it is likely that Dan could have settled this matter very quickly by posting documentation such as pictures of himself taking ukemi for Kiyama, copies of his rank certificates, and other evidence of his past membership in the Kodokai, he refused to do so because he believed (correctly, in my opinion) that it would cast Goldberg and Kiyama in an unflattering light.

Pictures from seminars and swords given as gifts do not prove membership, but simply indicate some type of involvement. If there are rank certificates he or anyone else would like to have validated, the NA Kodokai would in fact be interested in seeing them. Be advised that seminar participation certificates were and are often given out, but these would be very hard to confuse with ranks since the text is all written in English.

As a former student of Roy Goldberg Sensei and Hayawo Kiyama Sensei, I can attest to the fact publicly that Mr. Dan Harden was a member of the Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai.

Hi Howard. Please feel free to post publicly or privately what your endorsement is based on.

* *

Folks, there is no reason for this to turn into another heated debate. So tell you what. As I've posted several times before on e-budo:

Contact the NA Kodokai directly. While they are not very interested in becoming involved with any of this publicly, they stated they are willing to answer any questions anyone wishes to submit to them. Dan himself is welcome to contact them if he is confused about his own past experiences. If this is going to become a heated discussion, like it always does, then feel free to take this discussion off the forums and sort it out directly with Dan and the NA Kodokai once and for all.

Here, again, is the contact information for the NA Kodokai:

http://uskodokai.org/

Simply click on the "Click here to request information." link to email them. To date, I am told this is something nobody has done yet, even though confusion over this subject continues to be spread over the internet for a number of years now!

Regards,