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Thread: Body Conditioning

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_Campbell View Post
    Beautifully said, Tom. If this post is what concussion does for you, please take more hits.
    Gee, um, thanks?

    I'm fine and on a related tangent, I never would have guessed 10 years ago when I decided to go the internal route that I would end up actually learning about how to fight, or that I would be kind of eager about it. But then, I also figured it would never actually happen because internal skills are so uncommon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_Campbell View Post
    The primary benefit of Aunkai's beginning exercises for me have been, initially, to improve (condition?) awareness of internal connection and consequently where to place intent. Embodiment of intent. Getting to a point (in a year, or three) where the yi can create and manipulate those pathways you're feeling, maybe the tension-based practices won't be (as) necessary. But right now at my beginning stage they seem very useful.
    I agree 100% as far as I the words go, and encourage you (and anyone) to get as much hands on time with people like Ark & Rob as you can.
    Tom Holz

  2. #392
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom H. View Post
    What you wrote is, to the degree that I understand and have it trained into my body, spot on. I've only been working hard about a year, but I've made some progress...
    For me, that un-muscled tension feeling was my foot-in-the-door. Now I don't think you even need that tension (much less any muscle) to set up a connected body structure that remains mobile and connected under duress. Here's my current take on different families of tension:
    • Muscle = you think you are being strong
    • Stretch = first step in connecting, and important for conditioning
    • Intent = I cannot overstate how important I think this is, especially as conditioning!
    • Breath = likely the key to a level of softness and power I don't have yet

    Ask again in after another year of training, and hopefully I'll at least have my foot into the door on breath training and power.
    You not only control the pathways and direct power around, you create them as well, ex-nihilo as it were. Your intention can & should be trained to setup and use these pathways automatically. The Chinese have captured the idea beautifully in nei san he ("internal three harmonies"):
    1. Heart (xin) leads intent (yi).
    2. Intent (yi) leads energy (qi).
    3. Energy (qi) leads strength (li).

    Beautiful, elegant, and mostly useless. If you can do it, it's seriously obvious. If you can't, then words alone are not likely to help. Still.. nice to know

    Yes, and the more powerfully and pervasive through your body in all motion at all times you manifest them, the better you are off.

    A comment: the feelings are useful for teaching your body where the pathways are, and I found them tremendously useful, but it's the pathways that are more important, and I now believe those can happen in the absence of both muscular and stretch tension. Not sure how breath training plays into it yet, though. I'd also suggest that if "trying" is a keyword for muscle, then I agree, don't "try", but you have to engage you intent/will, and consciously at first, and cajole it into doing strange new things, and train that way for a while, and then--eventually--your body will change the way it works.

    Well I guess you effectively "outed" my approach didn't ya?
    I have only good to say about the Aunkai method I have seen, heard, and read about. The goals are to first identify pathways. "Identify" is a key, operative, word. They have to *be* identified in order to work them, and connect, and manipulate them. Their approach will do that. Both approaches will do that. If you read the Aunkai approach and listened to them, they advocate the diminished tensions and eventual relaxation later in the training as well. So while I advocate a softer approach throughout-both approaches lead to power and *perhaps* the same goals in the end. The real question is how much success these methods have had with those training with us. If its working, then there ya go.

    I do have one objection, and that is the use of the term ex-nihilo in Tom’s H.’s post.
    I think it is important to keep in mind that you are not creating something that does not exist. Rather you are discovering and strengthening pathways that *do* exists, but, have not been utilized previously. In other words, you could spend a year developing connections that you *made up in your head* that lead to nowhere. I have seen it happen, much to the chagrin of those who have tried. Likewise, Or you can spend the same amount of time on things that work. I have also seen work reviewed and strengthened by those who were farther along, and the corrections were a furtherence of clarity- in use. So discovering the correct methods and training them is the way to go and maybe that avoids vein imaginings.

    The softer approach I speak of, is in certain Japanese arts. Some, are unfortunately tied to kata, either because it’s the only way they know, or in others the only thing they want *you* to know. Upon further discovery you may be disappointed to see the limited understanding of many an “expert.” There is at least one Japanese art that may be more complete and all encompassing, with methods that can be used to train the body in all aspects of movement. It just may prove to be highly problematic and exceedingly time consuming to get anywhere in it. Some have even seen the forest for the trees and said screw it, they're not showing it, so whats the point and quit.
    We have to recognize that some arts have made certain aspects of internal training *kata specific* and that is how they train it. Just don’t be trapped by a single arts viewpoint. It can be a narrow view and you won't know it. You may have to learn it their way at first, before you can see beyond it, but it will behoove you to get out and see what others are doing. There are some who never will. They will be trapped by their knowledge instead of being freed by it. Once you find men with these skills-real skills- it quickly reveals that these skills are universally sound and applicable. Some could say that if you don't know these skills are universally applicable-then you just....don't know them.

    Training
    The methods are real and do in fact cross all borders and are in fact used in Daito ryu, Koryu and the ICMA. Those who know-know. Others can only guess at how or why that can be. Some even lash out in anger. Still others simply deny that it can ever be true.

    So, who does have it? Find out for yourself! Go meet up with those talking about this-then go meet these master level teachers of one art or another. Experience and feel is inescapable. You’ll know. Then make up your own mind. Some have nothing more then their arts waza. Anyone who wants to step up and say THEY have it to one degree or another, or it is in their art? They can be tested in an instant-sans all kata and against all defenses of not revealing their gokui. In fact it is probably advisable to do just that. Test without kata. Kata can be a mask for a lower level “initiation” into these skills. Anyone, any single one, who gets this will stand out in any physical expression of movement. The arts are just what you do…with it.
    I do not teach this through Kata. It is my opinion that you cannot, and will never learn these skills through kata. You may learn some-art specific limited “thing’s” but the fullness of the bodies internal power that leads to real skills cannot be learned that way. You have to do so solo tanren, and then start with limited paired training that does NOT involve kata, particularly wrist grabbing, or anything else that will engage the use of the arms and shoulders. IMO, of all the things you could do, to gain these skills- wrist grabs are the worst thing you can do. Or at least *thee* slowest method to learn. Since engaging the arms and using the muscles of the shoulders and scapulars are the worst thing you can do-starting off with the hardest route to avoid it leads to successive failure and bad habits. The idea of matching and zeroing out their power to manipulate it happens inside your body, not in your hands or in hand shapes that are in and of themselves just more “waza.” So keying into training that targets and reinforces things like rising energy, dropping energy, zero balance or central equilibrium –in the body-creates the ideal; a body that works from the inside out. Thus you by and large avoid many pitfalls and more directly train for real skills in a shorter time frame. The hands then happen naturally. Of course you still need to learn an arts *waza* but all that becomes a personal choice. One fella may pick some neat hand shapes that capture the inherent frame of a grab and manipulate the skeletal structure. Another fella may like how it works in grappling and punching and kicking. It’s all in a days work.
    So Tom Campbells point comes back around. How do we get from students training and never truly getting the goods from their teachers. Can the students bypass teachers –just the way our Japanese forebears did, and get the knowledge to train in tanren from the ground-up (pun intended) that actually makes a difference in their bodies? And that starting within just a years time? Can they do it and in 5 years time, and have it be so profound that their bodies become almost unmanageable to deal with? Even difficult to their own teachers?
    Yes!
    And men are currently doing...just that.
    Cheers
    Dan
    Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th January 2008 at 05:44.

  3. #393
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    Dan,

    Could you define what you mean by "zero balance"?

    Steve Baroody
    Steve Baroody

  4. #394
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    Default #392--remember this one

    The quote from Tom Holz and Dan's commentary lay the principles and training overview out pretty generously. Thanks, both of you.

    The hard work of training and exploring remains. But at least we have a clearer view of what to look for.
    Thomas Campbell

  5. #395
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
    Dan,

    Could you define what you mean by "zero balance"?

    Steve Baroody
    Hi Steve
    I can't right now. I will tonight. Simply put 99.99% of the population of the earth remains balanced a certain way. Martial artists count on it to undo them structurally since they act more or less the same against force.
    Others maintain their structural integrity or central balance differently. They count on martial artists trying to handle -them- like they do the first group.

    Cheers
    Dan
    Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi

  6. #396
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    Thanks, Dan. I look forward to your reply.

    Steve
    Steve Baroody

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    I do have one objection, and that is the use of the term ex-nihilo in Tom’s H.’s post.
    I think it is important to keep in mind that you are not creating something that does not exist. Rather you are discovering and strengthening pathways that *do* exists, but, have not been utilized previously.
    Dan, thanks for the correcting clarification. There's a something-out-of-nothing going on somewhere, but I absolutely agree that it's not in the body. One of the first things I learned a long time ago was that the internal stuff required re-wiring the body to move and not move in a new way, which leads into the comment I wanted to make to the other Tom's post.
    Tom Holz

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_Campbell View Post
    The hard work of training and exploring remains. But at least we have a clearer view of what to look for.
    I'd also suggest going back through the archives of a couple different sites. It's worth the work of slogging through all of someone's posts to find the gold nuggets. I think there is a surprising amount of very practical direction out in the open.
    Tom Holz

  9. #399
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Sorry I bailed on the thread-I have had the flu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom H. View Post
    I'd also suggest going back through the archives of a couple different sites. It's worth the work of slogging through all of someone's posts to find the gold nuggets. I think there is a surprising amount of very practical direction out in the open.
    Well I think a few of us have really tried to explain some difficult concepts in a troubling medium. When you add to that, a host of martial artists unfamiliar with the material along with others who are openly dismissive of it- its gets difficult. I know -I- do much better in person, hands-on. It's very difficult to verbalize and explain from a distance. Sometimes even embarrasing. Stop and think Tom. Go back in time. How much did you *get* from reading then VS now? Now that you have felt it, had it explained, felt again and again, started to actually do, then saw skills building within you... don't previous discussions with others, and my own rather awful attempts at explaining things make so much more sense? It can be very difficult to explain and articulate, and it remains argumentative among those who simply don't know the material and havenlt trained it.
    Perhaps it is telling that people can watch a man move and not everyone can see the same things. So is it difficult to conceive that peope can read the same material and one will stumble along and try to decipher and the next will say...I think there is a surprising amount of very practical information out in the open. Hah!

    Cheers
    Dan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    How much did you *get* from reading
    None

    Every body skill I've ever got has been from hands on. There are some useful ideas that I picked up from reading, however:
    • There is a powerful weird something at the core of most martial arts.
    • It's not technique.
    • Getting it requires completely rewiring your movement.
    • It won't happen training part-time
    • Most people don't have it, despite what they say (I certainly didn't)
    • It isn't easy to find someone who can does, and will teach

    I picked up these beliefs about ten years ago, and they are why I didn't do martial arts. In the places I lived the dojos and teachers I encountered focused on technique and quietly brushed over body training. Those ideas are what drove me to visit, for example Akuzawa, where I first picked up something, and I think it's those kinds of ideas for which these discussions are useful: general descriptions of what's possible and how it's achieved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    don't previous discussions with others, and my own rather awful attempts at explaining things make so much more sense?
    They made sense before, but I just couldn't do anything, no matter how much I read about intent, breathing, or contradictory forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    I think there is a surprising amount of very practical information out in the open. Hah!
    yeah, well...

    It's not what I meant when I wrote it, but how about this: the practical information is the advice to get out and meet people, to discover that there is or is not something to all this, and that there are or are not systematic ways of training it that people are developing.
    Last edited by Tom H.; 26th January 2008 at 04:57.
    Tom Holz

  11. #401
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Steve

    First up let’s take the idea of balance to the extreme to imagine its potential. Again it is worth considering just why it is that so very many Japanese master level teachers continually spoke of “power” all the time. And just what were they referring to and why?

    What if by magic you could snap your fingers and be able to stand there relaxed and comfortable and people who tried to throw you felt comparatively anemic and helpless to do much of anything. What do you think that level of balance retention would bring to your ability to *do* a martial technique on them? Better still if they unloaded a directed force like trying to knock you, or pull you down and with your magically enhanced retained balance-and their power didn’t feel like much? If they pulled on your arm and it was so weak that it couldn’t cause you to need to use muscle-say your triceps- and you could sort of think about moving your spine back or dropping a little weight and the guy would be drawn -into you. How easy would it be to capture this very weak person with a plethora of waza? Now if this weak power came from someone who is now magically so much less able to keep his –own- balance you could then very easily manipulate that *captured* energy in a host of non waza magical looking movements. Let’s say he grabs you and he is so much weaker than you at holding his own force that you can lift him up on to his toes by using your trained body and capturing and directing his force as well.

    Now let’s examine what would happen if you and your amazing balance wanted to now move against these weakened people. Were you to connect to them-how easy would it be to *keep* the matching energy at first contact, say a keikogi grab then add to it with another contact point? Then…if you decide to move, left, right, up , down, then seem to somehow magically move with you. What if you decided to move that ability-into-them with a push or a punch or kick, but your body can complete the energy back in you but with knock out power into them?

    In the real world its not so dramatic- but the model serves as a goal or outline for a basic tenant of skill. The value is the same in any aiki art as it is in any grappling art. There is much to discuss as to the complexities of just how and where a strengthened central equilibrium would affect you and cause effects with someone who engages with you. The ways to greatly enhance this ability in you are the focus of much of internal work and it is the central pillar to creating any matching energy, rising energy or descending energy in an engagement. While improving your central equilibrium or zero balance you are increasing your ability to pivot freely, and engaging and transferring more supported mass without revealing openings. While you are improving all of this you are improving your ability to absorb or send from the ground you will feel heavy while moving lightly and will feel very strong while not using muscle. Again, anyone who decides to say they get it, or understands its worth can be tested instantly. I will say that most-will fail.



    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 27th January 2008 at 06:05. Reason: Removed post delete request

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    Hi Dan,

    First, thanks for your explanation. I've been trying to digest it, and I think I understand. A further difficulty is how to verbalize that I understand. The analogy that comes to mind is that of attaching a pulley to either a spring or a concrete wall. Your efforts lifting with the pulley will be far more efficient if it is connected to concrete, than if it's attached to the spring that will move and bleed off your efforts. The average spine is less stable, and therefore the muscles can effect less strength, whereas if your spine is more balanced and stable, every muscle which pulls off it will be more effective. Does that work?

    The next question, although perhaps not through this medium, is how to train this. Most spinal rehab exercises are geared toward folks who are compromised already, and may not well address someone whose spinal is "normal".

    Steve
    Steve Baroody

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    Default Other benefits to "Body Conditioning"?

    Other than the martial benefits, any day to day health benefits? Things like stronger knees, more flexibility, fewer visits to the chiropractor , less back hair :-) etc.

    Thanks
    bryan white

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwhite33 View Post
    Other than the martial benefits, any day to day health benefits?
    I have had to deal with chronic foot pain ever since hiking two thousand miles. That pain was aggravated by walking, ballroom dancing, long distance driving, and even aikido on mats. But it's magically receded over the past year, which about how long I've been training this stuff. Maybe it's not coincidence, but maybe it is.
    Tom Holz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
    The average spine is less stable, and therefore the muscles can effect less strength, whereas if your spine is more balanced and stable, every muscle which pulls off it will be more effective. Does that work?
    Part of the problem is that it's not always "muscle" pulling/doing the work.
    And that's without getting into the fact that the musculature is simply being used differently.

    Find someone that does this stuff and it'll be pretty clear what everyone here has been posting about.
    ------------------------
    Robert John

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