Explain this technique please

You're in a right front stance. Your right hand is extended in a spear hand and your left hand is palm down under the right arms elbow.

One BB I talked to insists that the left hand is blocking, blocking what I don't know.

I think it's a setup for a throw.

[Jari Virta]

Originally posted by Maverick
You're in a right front stance. Your right hand is extended in a spear hand and your left hand is palm down under the right arms elbow.

One BB I talked to insists that the left hand is blocking, blocking what I don't know.

I think it's a setup for a throw.

It might be used as such. The left hand may be trapping extended arms that may have grabbed your garment already, right hand may be striking on his throat, then do whichever throw you prefer (or which comes next in the kata?) if you like. I'm sure there are other uses too. This came to mind because of my trapping experiences in Filipino arts.

[Sochin]

When you take the formalities out of it, it's not a bad move.

The block happens as you move forward into him and pushes down whatever hand is in front of you going in, great access to the throat, although a throat grab while driving him backward seems more natural to me than just a finger stab.

Thanks guys those are good uses. I can see the spear hand to the throat cavity.
What was giving me problems was that in Do San kata (I do TKD) this posture is used for an obvious hip throw. In Yul-Gok the posture is preceeded by twin knife hand blocks from a back-stance. After working with this today I've come up with this, the twin knife hands catch the right arm at the elbow and wrist, it then moves into the spear hand posture which would fold the opponents arm back. I'm not done with this section of the kata yet but I think I'm onto something.

It's really very cool how each move can contain several different types of techniques.

PS The reason a TKD guy is here is because I've recently started Isshinryu.

Also forgive me for mixing terminology from karate, TKD and Tai Chi.

[Hank Irwin]

Pinan Shodan. Opponent throws LEFT punch, sabaki clockwise to left, you left hand palm block(subido: grab/twist, sabaki back counterclockwise to left, right nukite glances top of opponents left elbow joint, kyushu! Remember, when you palm block and grab you "pull" opponents attacking arm in and past your own body,(makes elbow ready) same as other side except nukite strikes with right thumb at opponents lower bicep were the tendons and muscle and elbow come together above elbow. Then you slip your left arm under opponents armpit to top of his/her shoulder,put right top of hand in palm of left, tuite lock on arm and shoulder. Put pressure at hands in downward fashion. Ouch, snap!

[Hank Irwin]

excuse me, kyusho jitsu, meridian strike,elbow break, joint lock whatever! You a English teacher or sum'fin Mr. Rousselot? You seem to enjoy correcting people. I guess that is ok if you think it makes you feel good. Otherwise why don't you eloborate on technique not bad english.

Or, to be exact and precise, what we see is that prior to excuting weird manuever of nukite over shotei osae uke (extracting hand over palm heel press receiving), or spear hand over pressing palm block as it is known in America:

Prior to this, I say, we were executing the third of what is known as shuto-uke( literally hand sword receiving) techniques, in Okinawan kenpo (Rope in the offing fist method) done in seisan dachi(thirteen stance, named after the kata of same name),
and in neko ashi dachi( cat's foot stance) in Shorin ryu Matsubayashi,
which have multiple applications and which can also defend against multiple attacks.

Indeed it can be truly said that the shuto uke contains an entire martial art all in itself.

Thus we see, that to understand exactly what sort of things we could be doing,and Mr. Irwin certainly has one possibillity nailed as can be seen,grammar and Gramper:-) notwithstanding,it would be necessary to explain, in context of a particular cersion of the kata, exactly what attack we were defending against, and if we were doing an oyo(followup) to a previous maneuver, in order to interpret precisely the meaning of the maneuver in question.

In short, the spear hand pressing palm maneuver as done in a zenkutsu dachi, Shorin has a different app than one done in Zenkutsu Shotokan(wider stance, knife hands come way down from way up, and you turn into a kokutsu dachi after the spear hand press palm which anyway slides up all the way into the armpit, or used to in Shotokan)

plus in Shorin the palm is pulled back and around into left chamber as the nukite strikes and before turning into a ninety degree cat stance),

and seisan dachi Okinawan Kenpo(different stance, , palm is under elbow, then you turn into forty five degree seisan stance with shuto uke, cross and check and strike app is possible for shuto here)


So, which kata in which style are we doing, to find an app for which attack, and as a single motion or as part of a series?It changes as the circumstances change, which is why one translation of karate, is Ku Ti, 'Vastness of Hand."

I can give you apps for anything, but these things are more complex and fluid than they might at first so seem.

For use in a real situation, they kind of have to be.

In the Matsubayashi ryu technique, for instance, there is an impied front snapkick(imlied by the neko ashi dachi) in the middle of each of the shuto uke, right after the rollback which the other shuto do not have shown,and right before the trap or strike with rear hand and the finishing strike with the front hand.

Then the palm press may become a neck manipulation into a break, and the turn is a throw to lose the opponent.

Or could be ,a palm strike to LI 10 o the opponent's left arm, then a pull in arm bar, then turn and strike opponent in rear of neck(at GB20 with slanted shuto) as you take him around into the Whirling Fan O' Doom(tm).

In Shotokan version, it could be an elbow lock and spin into similar fan o' doom,with palm instead of fingertip strike.

In Kenpo,it could be a nerve burn to a trapped arm at inner elbow crease, Chuze point or whatever that's called, taking opponent to his knees.then you turn dropping him to floor and finish with shuto to neck.

For instance.

I would ask people who are critical to please post alternate applications. Its easy to criticize, not so easy to contribute something actually conducive to learning.

If one wishes people to recognize their knowledge or skill( don't care, myself:-), one should demonstrate that they have some.

Mr. Irwin is correct that this is not English 101,this is a thread on the applications possible for a particular kata maneuver.Mr. Irwin has posted an app, so have I, so may others.

If someone has such knowledge,and is a martial artist of such proportions, as to dwarf the rest of us, they should prove this by posting applications making the rest of us look totally ignorant, nay, completely silly, in comparison.

If they feel these too dangerous or too secret or too powerful to post, they should lurk in silence and laugh at the foolishness of such mortal exponents of the partial arts as we;no doubt many such, do.

Otherwise, if criticism is one's goal, one should come on here, after carefully reading other's posts, for technical content, and really show us what is what, who only know nothing or less than nothing.

For myself, I know only a little.I am sure that Mr. Irwin also knows a little.Others on here do, too.

If anyone really knows a lot, they shoud share some morsels with we feeble ones, we mere deshi,who only, as I say, know , a little.

regards to all,
Kusanku

[Hank Irwin]

no jitsu: techniques of
no jutsu: art/way of
atemi: striking
waza: points/techinique
Robsan, share a little knowledge please, we don't teach students to ridicule other deshi's grammer, or do we? We can ALL learn from each other. Johnsan's experience is vast to say the least, Joesan, and Lindseysan also, and so many more. Please join in the same manner of giving to each other. We can only learn so much from each other on this forum. But when we meet, we have the opportunity to first hand express ourselves. Will it be for confrontation or dialog? You can go anywhere, ANYWHERE and fight if you look for it. Where can you go and find what we here are trying to create? We live in a great time to say the least Robertsan, many are willing to share where this once was kinjiru. We should take advantage of the opportunity.

heiwa, watashi no oni'isan

kusanku, the version I was thinking of is in the TKD hyung Yul-Guk.
I hate to ask a TKD question here, but so far this is the best chance of getting an answer.

[gmanry]

In the version of Pinan Sandan practiced in my dojo the gedan shotei uke and nukite are followed by the typical backward 180 maneuver. However, as you pull your left foot up, the knees are bent and the body squats to brush the floor with the fingertips (vertical spine). The left foot passes through to kiba or shiko dachi and tetsui is applied in either a swinging or pressing manner depending on the application.

One interpretation of this is a defense against an opponents left knee strike to the midsection. The block will be more gouging than a simple shotei (also with some sabaki if you are smart). The nukite can be used to disbalance, attack organs, etc. This sets the opponent up for skui nage (scooping throw) in that you hook the right hand under the left knee of the opponent and turn taikyoku style (big turn and body shift) past his or her outside shoulder. If you block off the opponents leg with your right leg and use the right tetsui to control the opponents shoulder, head, neck, ear, hair, etc., a really nasty throw occurs. The worst case scenario is, aside from removing an ear or breaking/wrenching the neck or throat, a disclocated hip, a dislocated shoulder, and a fractured skull. Not bad for a Pinan kata designed for shoolchildren.

Of course, this is my interpretation of this movement. It is, in my opinion a really nice evasion and counter to someone who overuses power and is convinced they have you right where they want you.

Sorry for the long post, describing kata is impossible, so I am sorry if this makes no sense. I feel there is a lot of misunderstanding of the potential of this kata. I know a lot of people who avoid it like the plague.

Best of luck,
Glenn R. Manry

[Hank Irwin]

Spear thrust is same as in Pinan Shodan. The difference you will see is just separating bunkai for the sake of the individual kata themselves. KusanKu contains all of the techniques in the Pinans because that is where the Pinans come from. One difference in spear thrust from Pinan Sandan and Pinan Shodan is arm break before spear thrust in Pinan Sandan where you have palm block/grab in Pinan Shodan.In Pinan Sandan, after arm break you push arm away and step through to deliver spearthrust OR after break you push over and under armpit to top of shoulder, step back and around with back leg as you deliver thrust to side of neck or shuto-thrust to back of neck. This same palm strike/block/grab is also used against a Bo thrust or Jo thrust. Against any thrust type attack against you. What makes the difference is the timing changes involved in executing technique and your "change-body" principles. These are not basic principles though.

[gmanry]

Hmm, your pinan shodan is our nidan, obviously reflecting the switch which some instructors instituted along the way.

I suspect that the way in which I perform the pinans is somewhat different from the way you perform them. So, I am not sure we can really properly discuss the differences in pinan nidan and sandan without a lot of description.

I am not sure what you mean by "arm break," although I have no doubt one can be obtained from the movement. Are you talking about the wrist escape maneuver found in a lot of sandan kata (ours does not produce this unless it is like an Aikido tenkan waza)? Or are you talking about an actual arm breaking maneuver (breaking the bone)? I can see the attacks to the upper and under side of the elbow, bicep and tricep (depending on angle and circumstances). So obviously damaging the arm is an important bonus.

Our sandan has morote uke prior to the nukite and shotei uke. Our nidan (your shodan) has mawashi shuto uke prior to the nukite and shotei uke. We do not excecute the straight line shuto uke in that kata, but rather the circular shuto uke, similar to Kyokushin and Seido styles (given for reference only).

I can visualize the shoulder trapping maneuver you described (at least I think I can, maybe I am full of cr@p). If I am seeing it in my head correctly, that hold is actually one of the waza that we produce out of the gedan/chudan uke of the second line of motion in sandan.
I will have to try it on the third line.

Full streaming video, that is what we need and fully telepathic interfaces. Or we could actually go outside and practice, there's an idea...

Glenn R. Manry

[Hank Irwin]

Your're not kidding Glennsan! Some streaming clips would be excellant, I sometimes think I am being TOO discriptive trying to discribe technique here, some technique is almost impossible to do and would be foolish for me to try. I am not sure we are doing opposite kata, The shodan Pinan we do is from what I am told THE 1st Pinan. I know the Japanese changed the order for them because shodan is a harder kata to learn than the nedan Pinan. That one particular thing though has puzzled me for years. If you look at nedan compared to shodan, shodan has much more technique in it, and is definetly harder to perform. The Pinans are SO full of technique. The arm break I was referring to is as you turn to face center before intro to spear is neko-dachi with heel on floor, closed fist kamae like "boxer" type stance. When moving to this stance you "snap" the fists to the body(elbows trap) hitting the opponents wrist on inside and elbow on outside. Bones are extremelly hard to actually break, this break/dislocation is at the elbow and wrist. I may try to put some video on my site to maybe transfer here. I'll have to ask Johnsan about how to go about doing it. Oh man look at that, attach file!! Yahooo! Johnsan! Here we go!

[gmanry]

I suspected you meant the morote uke in Sandan. We do it from zenkutsu dachi, but I am familiar with it from the shorter kokutsu dachi as well.

We typically use this movement as a throw or clearing movement or a big interception to overwhelm the opponent. Of course, our forward stance lends itself to such an interpretation. I will have to play more with the Kokutsu application.

In your previous post, you seemed to be saying that following the shotei uke and nukite you hood under or over the trapped arm and use the turn to pull them around into a shuto strike. Am I under standing that correctly? I will have to try this. I can see how this would work with either a left or right sided attack.

I agree that shodan has a lot of technique in it. I will be coming around on my rotation to shodan and nidan soon, so I will have to take another look at them.

I feel that sandan is a kata that many people avoid and do not spend enough time learning. The scissor blocks on the first and second line are typically written off by a lot of people. I did this myself for awhile early on. Then I got mad. I told myself that certainly there is something there. Nobody would spend years practicing them for no reason. I found some things :-). Now it is a kata where applications seem to leap out at me.

Take care.

Glenn R. Manry

[Hank Irwin]

Yes Glennsan, you understand correctly. It will pull your opponent down to ground if you go to low zenkutsu dachi. From there, many Ti knots you can perform. Hahaha! Also allows the chance to execute nasty hip toss too. I have had same observation concerning Pinan Sandan. I haven't met too many that actually know the bunkai for this kata. What I have seen is mostly from Ryukyu Kempo from Oyata Sensei. Still pretty mean stuff. Actually anything Oyata Sensei does is horrific to say the least. I don't teach Sandan until chudan. I find Sandan a kata you have to "commit" to, to get it right. Don't be fooled, there is much good technique in Sandan Pinan. The double "blocks" are almost identical to Naihanchi in application. Hmmm interesting no? Many think the Pinans were developed strictly for elementary schools kids. This is not so. Pinans were "structured" for the Japanese. The Japanese did not originally accept Okinawan Karate because it was not "systemized" like all things Japanese as far as they were concerned. ALL bunkai was taken out of the Kata and taught as physical education principles. The Japanese considered Okinawan karate as being nothing until it was made into an "art form" by the Japanese. If the Japanese actually knew how "dangerous" the Pinans really were, they would re-think their ideas about them. But what I am saying is not new to many ears, that's for sure. I noticed we now have a browser so we can download whatever to our posts, that Lindseysan installed. Domo John Sensei! This should be real interesting.