Here a Soke, There a Soke, Everywhere a Soke

I had to back up a bit to follow this, but I have often heard the simple term "gi" used by Japanese to verbally refer to martial arts practice clothing. It was more common for judogi, but I have even heard it in reference to the kendo top, typically called a "keikogi." It may be proper Japanese grammar (per Mark, Jeff, and Joseph) to use it only as a suffix, but colloquial usage doesn't always conform to strict grammar rules in any language. For example, many of my Japanese colleagues would exclaim "Nani?" instead of the grammatically correct "Nan desu ka?" when inquiring about something. [Sort of like "What?" or "Huh?" instead of "What is it?" or "What do you mean?"]

I am no language expert, certainly not even close to proficient in Japanese, but I did notice a tendency to use simple words, what appeared to be almost madeup words, especially between males. Maybe Japanese females also use such terms when talking between themselves, but they typically used more formal Japanese when conversing with the opposite gender. Some men also switched to more formal grammer when addressing women, but many males were not so considerate.

Another example that comes to mind is the use of "hamako" as a reference to someone who is a native of Yokohama. I think the literal translation is something close to "Child of Yokohama," but then it would seem more appropriate to use "Yokohamako," but I've never heard that used instead. A comparison might be "Edoka" for a native of Tokyo, since Edo is the original city name.

Just my two cents worth. I look forward to any further clarification those more knowledgable about the intricacies of the Japanese language might offer here.

[dakotajudo]

I took a Japanese friend for a drive this spring, When she got in my car, she saw my niece's judo uniform in the back seat. She asked if that was my "dogi".

I also found it interesting that she referred to Yawara's favorite throw as "ippon seoi", instead of the "seoi nage" that I usually hear here.

Peter

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Don Cunningham
... I have often heard the simple term "gi" used by Japanese to verbally refer to martial arts practice clothing. It was more common for judogi, but I have even heard it in reference to the kendo top, typically called a "keikogi."

i'm a little surprised by that, since i assumed that japanese students of martial arts would be taught correct terminology (my kendoka wife fixed my former bad habit of using the term "gi"), but then who knows?

It may be proper Japanese grammar (per Mark, Jeff, and Joseph) to use it only as a suffix, but colloquial usage doesn't always conform to strict grammar rules in any language. For example, many of my Japanese colleagues would exclaim "Nani?" instead of the grammatically correct "Nan desu ka?" when inquiring about something. [Sort of like "What?" or "Huh?" instead of "What is it?" or "What do you mean?"]

an excellent point. a linguist may still argue that a one-word expression is a grammatically complete sentence, but it's true that everyday use of a language is not bound by the rules of perfect grammar.

I am no language expert, certainly not even close to proficient in Japanese, but I did notice a tendency to use simple words, what appeared to be almost madeup words, especially between males. Maybe Japanese females also use such terms when talking between themselves, but they typically used more formal Japanese when conversing with the opposite gender. Some men also switched to more formal grammar when addressing women, but many males were not so considerate.

i think that has more to do with sociolinguistic concerns than it has grammar per se. as with any language there are various levels of formal and informal expression. it just happens that in japanese a speaker chooses those levels according to somewhat stricter codes of sociolinguistic behaviour, at least traditionally. differences in age, gender, seniority within an organization, or social position all affect the way one person speaks to another. as well, the uchi-soto (inside-outside) relationships between speakers have a big influence, too. and think about all the ways that english gets "reworked" in common use: "whaddya gon' do 'boutit" instead of "What are you going to do about it", or "noamsain?" instead of "(Do you) know what I'm saying?" what you thought were made-up terms could just be these kinds of colloquialisms.

Another example that comes to mind is the use of "hamako" as a reference to someone who is a native of Yokohama. I think the literal translation is something close to "Child of Yokohama," but then it would seem more appropriate to use "Yokohamako," but I've never heard that used instead. A comparison might be "Edoka" for a native of Tokyo, since Edo is the original city name.

it's pretty much the same deal as saying "L.A." rather than Los Angeles, or saying "N'Awlins" instead of New Orleans. truncations like that are common in many languages. people from my hometown of Toronto used to refer to it as "T.O.", an obvious rip-off of the L.A. example. toronto's also had some more colourful nicknames, among them "The Big Smoke", and decades ago when it was just coming into its own as a city, it was known as "Hogtown".

to make a short story long, i agree with your basic point, Don. languages are living animals, and grammar or no grammar, people use them in the most extraordinary ways. take care and read you later.

cheers, jeff hamacher

Actually, I find that judogi or dogi runs off the tongue a little easier than gi, but Jeff is right, as is Don, though what you may hear is not always what is said.

I speak fluent Spanish, and while living in Mexico I found more than a few English terms which had no equal in Spanish, said as it was in English, but phonetically correct for Spanish.

Example: Clipboard = kleep or kleepbord. Normally if all ready inferred, it is Kleep. One I especialy love from the border states of Mexico, is "Que dice su watcho?" "What does your watch say?" Now that is a classic and is even appreciated as a joke the further south you go

Business = beeznus, as in como te va el beeznus? (How goes the business) Same here, and if the Spanish, negocio is inferred, it becomes beeznus. Others are Puch for Push (empuje), Chance =Chance, pronunciation completely different, but it is used in place of the Spanish as in Chance=Opertunidad. Dame chance=Give me a chance or minute or any other exclamation meaning the same thing. Or Vamos a ver becomes simply "a ver" meaning Let me see, or dejame a ver, or a ver, literally "let me see." Closet is "closet." I won't go into the swearing as some have this idea that swearing in Spanish is weak. Well, I've got news for you, I've heard ones there which wouldn't be used in Spanish language pornography.

So how did the English slang for head guy or gal become honcho? Doh!

But in sentences or exclamations where the entire parts of each word isn't heard, it doesn't mean it wasn't said, sorta like M and N in Japanese. Kempo is kenpo, but most couldn't tell the difference without the training.

We play with words such as jutsu and jitsu, and which is correct, but coming up in the sixties, Jigoro Kano was pronounced with the accent on the first syllable in Jigoro, sounding more as Jigaro, and many times was spelled this way. I've also heard it in Japanese movies pronounced that way, so which is it? (rhetorical).

Even today, in many judo clubs jujutsu is simply juts.
*******

The idea, I think, if we are going to use a foreign language in everyday speach even if it is strictly a question of terminology, it probably should be said correctly.

But then, why is Japanese any different from Spanish, or Italian, etc.? It isn't. So if not, shouldn't the word Vamoose be taught as Vamos or Vamanos?
******

Well, that was fun. I bet the debate or those like it go on forever, as certain words become part and parcel of English just as English has become same in so many other languages and I'm not going to question it, at least anymore. It is just too complicated to go backwards.

Mark (Jewish name is Moishe)

my kendoka wife fixed my former bad habit of using the term "gi"

First, I think Jeff has articulated the language issues much better than I could have ever done. However, I found this particular comment very interesting. While I was in Japan, I found my colleagues were often more concerned about my "proper" use of Japanese than they were when talking between themselves. I would often find my own phrases being corrected by the same people that I originally overheard use them.

For example, the term "meshi" is a rather crude reference to food, but I would often use it, maybe when asking about what is for lunch. It never failed to elicit a correction. Yet, the same person who corrected me would use the term in rather the same way without any notice from others.

I've noticed native English speakers doing the same thing to ESL speakers. They will correct their grammar or pronounciation according to the rules as they learned them in school, but won't think twice about bending or even breaking the same rules when talking with others. I've found myself mildly admonishing my Japanese friends to use "proper" references when it is really quite socially acceptable to use slang or colloqualisms under the circumstances. It must be a inherent desire to help, but it can seem quite irritating when you're on the receiving end.

Jeff, I thank you for the clarifications. Now where the heck were you when I was puzzling over all this in Yokohama? It sometimes seemed the language inconsistencies were just bizarre enough that I thought I was having flashbacks from some of the recreational medications I took during the '60s.

Professor Bodiford wrote:

Osano Jun argues that the first marital art in Japan to adopt a *sôke* system was the Kodokan School of judo... Osano could be right. The Kodokan set the standards not just for members within one training hall in one location but for all participants in judo throughout the nation. The Kodokan defined the art, it controlled licensing and instruction, and it established branch schools that maintain permanent affiliation with the headquarters. If the Kodokan does not recognize something as being "judo," then it is not judo. Therefore, there is no such thing as a new school of judo.

Similarly, there is only one Shorinji Kempo, but its founder is called Kaiso, not Soke. Again, with SK as with Judo, the emphasis is on modernity. I wonder if that has any bearing on the decision not to use soke?

Here I was explaining why just "gi" is wrong in another thread, only to find Jeff Hamacher has beaten me too it here!
Just one point that hasn't ben clearly addressed: Keikogi means "training wear" and dogi means "garb of the way," so you must theoretically be practicing a "do" Such as judo or karatedo to use "dogi." Having said that, we still say dogi in Shorinji Kempo (nary a "do" in sight). Also, when I was at Kyoto University, I had a language professor who claimed that you can't use "ka" as a suffix to mean "one who does..." unless it is preceded by "do," so "judoka" is acceptable, and "karatedoka" is acceptable, but "karateka" is not. All the Japanese I know, however, say "karateka" without a second thought. This professor also claimed to know 5,000 kanji, but we all figured that was debatable, too...
Best to all,

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Here I was explaining why just "gi" is wrong in another thread, only to find Jeff Hamacher has beaten me too it here!
Just one point that hasn't ben clearly addressed: Keikogi means "training wear" and dogi means "garb of the way," so you must theoretically be practicing a "do" Such as judo or karatedo to use "dogi." Having said that, we still say dogi in Shorinji Kempo (nary a "do" in sight). Also, when I was at Kyoto University, I had a language professor who claimed that you can't use "ka" as a suffix to mean "one who does..." unless it is preceded by "do," so "judoka" is acceptable, and "karatedoka" is acceptable, but "karateka" is not. All the Japanese I know, however, say "karateka" without a second thought. This professor also claimed to know 5,000 kanji, but we all figured that was debatable, too...
Best to all,

Dogi and keikogi are pretty much interchangeable in common usage, especially because Japanese don't usually make as much about the difference between "do" and "jutsu" suffixed arts that non-Japanese often do.

I've never heard "gi" used as a stand-alone in Japan (someone mentioned that they had), although there are a lot of weird contractions that younger people use, so I wouldn't rule it out. Still, linguistically speaking it would be incorrect usage.

"Ka" doesn't require a "do" in order to be used, otherwise you wouldn't have "geijutsuka" (artists), "shashinka" (photographers), or "shosetsuka" (novelists). The suffix does, however, imply a certain level of professionalism (as in earning a living through that activity, as opposed to being a hobbyist, which is the category that most martial artists probably fit into), so I probably wouldn't use it, for example, for myself - no matter that I have been training for some time.

Best,

Chris

[carl mcclafferty]

Toby:
Being Texans we have to be careful about telling students to go get their "dogi", they might come back with something that moos. LOL

For everyone else:
As far as red/white striped obi: I have Baba Sensei's Judo Shihan obi here in El Paso, he asked me to keep it until he retired from the military this year. Of course he received it at an official function in Tokyo (it says so on his belt and the box it came in), he only wears it to official functions/special occassions when its proper (not on the floor), he's 55years old (not 20) and, he's not so arrogant as to be believe he can be a soke of his own style of judo. Noted that we are best friends or he would never have handed it to me, so maybe I'm being silly defending a great judoka. But sometimes it okay to have one and we shouldn't have our students automatically yell "soke fraud" when we see one on someone at an official function. It might proved rather interesting if you stepped on the mat with him sometime later. ouch, uch, ouch, ouch. LOL

Carl McClafferty

[Cady Goldfield]

Carl,

Is that judo shihan obi the equivalent of being awarded an honorary doctorate in academe? Sounds similar.

Cady

[carl mcclafferty]

Cady:

To quote Yamada Sensei "Shihan Menkyo is something that can not be asked for, it can only be given; you can't test for it and can't pay for it"
He also said its traditionally given by the "Head of Style" not by testing in front of some board. Unlike an honorary doctorate, which can be given to someone that's never attended the school, its more of a title to someone who works hard within the style but has shown his heart and lifelong effort to be extra-ordinary in the eye of the head of style. I believe that someone could reach to the highest technical level menkyo in an art and not have received a Shihan Menkyo. I suppose it could happen at a young age (20s/30s), but I've never seen it.

Japanese practitioners seem to look for guidance from the recipient, seem to accept with respect a Gaijin that receives one from the head of style. Unfortunately many 20/30 year old gaijin claim their Shihan status received from some "western martial arts board" as a rank promotion, which its not. This denigrates the rarely given award and gives those who receive the title legitimately, from a head of style, a soiled name. This makes many to keep such a Menkyo to themselves, to keep from being tarnished along with the others. Unfortunately we (Americans) should celebrate our countrymen's effort and the good light that puts us in, but we can't because we don't know. I believe many wouldn't believe the person anyway, since it rarely happens even to Japanese practitioners.

Sorry to be so long winded Cady but its one of my pet peeves. The process might be different in other koryu but the meaning's the same. PS I rewrote this four times to take out the hurtful words.

Carl McClafferty

[Cady Goldfield]

Thanks for such a clear explanation, Carl, and I'm sorry if I opened a can of worms for you. Obviously, this form of recognition has a much deeper significance than an honorary degree. It isn't surprising that for each rare person who is awarded such recognition, there are 100 or even 1,000 who covet such an honor for personal advancement or self-validation, and who would exploit a title for personal gain.

Cady

[Diane Skoss]

Hi all,

As promised, the complete and expanded version of Will Bodiford's disquisition on the use and abuse of the term "soke" is available at Koryu.com (and of course, in our new book, Keiko Shokon). Visit http://koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html to read the final text.

Cheers!

Diane Skoss

Originally posted by Diane Skoss
Hi all,
As promised, the complete and expanded version of Will Bodiford's disquisition on the use and abuse of the term "soke" is available at Koryu.com (and of course, in our new book, Keiko Shokon). Visit http://koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html to read the final text.
Cheers!
Diane Skoss

YAMANTAKA : And I'm very proud for what I believe was the first suggestion to Prof. Bodiford to publish his excellent essay in the Koryu.com page and in KEIKO SHOKON, the spectacular new book by Diane Skoss :

[quote]
"W.BODIFORD : In the mean time, I have a question: Is there any advantage to having this kind of short essay appear in more than one web site? If not, then I think I should pick one well-established web site and ask everyone else to link to it.
YAMANTAKA : I agree with your proposal and, with all due respect, would suggest Diane Skoss's website (www.koryu.com). From there, I could get it and put it on my site, with a translation, side by side.
I'm not surprised so many people enjoyed your text. It touches on a subject of much interest to MA practitioners and explains many things about the Iemoto system in some arts (as Aikido, for instance).[END QUOTE]

By the way, Diane, can I do the translation and put the essay in my website - www.yahoogroups.com/group/Budovirtual ? Of course, I'll need to get also Prof. Bodiford's authorization but I don't think he'll deny it.
Best

I wonder if Will Bodiford would like to be an expert trial witness in my upcoming defense against Rod Sacharnoski's libel suit? Does anyone know how to contact him?