Koryu & Mythology

Guys,

The Tim McVeigh debate has been interesting and got me thinking. Our nation has wrestled with tragedy, heros, grief and now justice. These are the building blocks of mythology and mythological themes. As contemporary Americans I wonder if some of our societal problems are exacerbated by the fact that we no longer embrace our cultural mythologies as we did in the past. Sadly our childrens mythological heros / themes may include millionaire basketball players dressing like women and spewing virulent language. Maintaining old cultural/mythological themes is especially difficult in the melting pot of an eclectic America. Bill Moyers in his interviews with mythologist Joseph Campbell addressed this phenomon much better than I could. Classical mythology still speaks to many Americans but unfortunately it is becoming more a whisper to those people without the support or influence of decent role models. Tim McVeigh is a good case of a man who made up his own mythology because no significant mythology spoke to him or helped him understand humanity. Too bad for him, but worse, too bad for us.

Cultural mythology is a subtle thing but as people interested in Japanese budo the cultural mythology of Japan obviously speaks to us. It has seeped into me in very subtle ways. Maybe it is the cultural mythology of Japan that makes Japanese martial disciplines "Japanese". Is it mythological themes and influences that make us study so antiquated a pursuit as swordsmanship or naginata. Do these Japanese mythologies affect some of our perceptions of moral obligation and responsability? I would really be interested in the opinions of those who trained in Japan for extended periods of time. Much has been discussed here on the comparison of koryu and gendai budo traditions. At times it seemed that an important aspect of the discussion was being missed. Much head scratching was done on both sides of the discussion as if we couldn't put into words exactly why some of us are so dedicated to the arts we study. Could it be so subtle a thing as cultural mythology? Does Japanese cultural mythology speak to us in different ways and effect our appreciation and pursuit of different martial disciplines. I tend to believe cultural mythology had a great deal to do with my choice to pursue traditional jujutsu as diligently as I have. To someone like Ellis, Meik, or Dave perhaps the allure of Japanese mythological themes was much more great and what subtly drove them to dedicate so much time to the study of koryu in Japan.

Toby Threadgill

[Earl Hartman]

Gee, Toby, why doncha ask a HARD question instead of lobbing this meatball over the plate?

For me, I just grew up around too many Japanese Americans and saw too many Mifune movies when I was a kid. Then I saw a kendo demonstration when I was 17, said "Dude!! Cool!! I wanna be able to do THAT!" and was in the dojo the next week. Been there ever since in one form or another.

Since Americans are brought up to believe that all progress is good, we are subtly influenced to believe that, therefore, things that have been overtaken by progress must be inferior. So we discard them, whether they be aspects of technology, morality, or guiding philosophies. This leads to the rootlessness of modern American society that everyone seems to notice. But, people crave certainties, or, at least, some ethos to believe in. Budo in general, and koryu in particular, provides one. However, the real secret of budo, in my opinion, and why it has such a hold on those who have come to know it, is that while to outsiders it seems static and dedicated to the idea that everyone must be forced into the same mold, this is not the case at all. Budo preserves traditon, yes, but built into the system is the expectation and the necessity for each practitioner to interpret the art and make it his or her own, thus subtly altering it in some way and personalizing it. Properly understood, budo provides the ideal vehicle for both the preservation of a living tradition and its constant renewal. There is nothing in modern American society that comes close to this. However, I suspect that a very similar dynamic is at work in traditional Western arts such as classical ballet and opera.

In any case, America is based on the destruction of cultural mythologies, and in any case, the heterogeneous nature of American culture makes it quite difficult for there to be meta-myths to which everyone subscribes. Besides, our myths are always under attack as the noxious weed of the dreaded DPPPs (Dead Pale Penis People). Mom, the flag, and apple pie are going to mean different things to different people. So, when we get a mythology a la Joseph Campbell, what happens? George Lucas gets his hands on it and turns it into something on the side of a plastic drink cup from McDonalds.

Not to change the subject but I would say that it's not so much a lack of cultural mythology as a lack of "American Culture". As Americans we've embraced everything and all cultures but in the process we've lost having a culture of our own.
Many people who embrace not only martial arts but pottery, yoga, wood carving etc.. do so because there is a real history, a proper ettiquite and a form for their avocation.
When you read many of the books and articles on traditional martial arts what is attractive to many, seems to be the sense of belonging, of having people from different backgrounds agree to follow a set of "rules" or code of conduct. A "culture" that has a purpose, but also a proper way of doing everything from bowing to tying a belt.
When I meet someone from another country-- almost any country but ours--- they may not know why they do something a certain way only that they should do it that way. In America it seems the question is always "why?" and if someone doesn't come up with a reasonable (for that person) explanation, then they do it any way they please. We then say personal freedom, personal choice, but never stop to think about freedom or choice of the other person.
Didn't mean to go off on a tangent but I work with youth and see the results daily of not having a common culture and set of rules to live by in public.

Richard Brown

[Ellis Amdur]

Toby -

I think you are right on target. According to Jung, at the core of any myth that still carries meaning are "archetypes." These are the ways that the psyche is structured - it's texture is deliniated through images which are expressed in dreams, in fantasy, and on a cultural level, in myth.

The Japanese classical martial arts seem to crackle with a depth that affects the spirit - not in a New Agey way, but certainly shakes me up in ways hard to explain. The blue fire glint of polished steel, the scorn for one's own human weakness, and the attraction of a way of living that is the antithesis of sloppy. That many practitioners fall short is as irrelevant. There is an archetypal power that is beyond the individuals. I can think of several men, famous teachers, who, on a social/human level are quite mundane or quite flawed. But when they move, it is as if they are possessed by spirit(s) far greater than themselves.

It's sort of like music. Any graduate student of composition can compose a piece in the manner of Bach, for example. But they have no depth, they don't spring from the day-to-day sweat and passion and religious devotion of the churches Bach worshipped. (Mozart, emerging in a later generation is, to me, the equivalent of a system like the one you practice - instead of being invented out of whole cloth, you stand on and are lifted up by the predecessors of your own innovative instructor).

Japanese martial tradition grabs me down deep, nineteen generations deep, all of them demanding a loyalty to what they were trying to accomplish and trying to pass on. I don't mean that the demand is somehow to follow a rote learning without deviation, anymore that a son is supposed to be exactly like a father down to the genetic code.

I find this so hard to explain - but it is as if ten's, hundreds of men (and in Buko Ryu, women as well,) many of whom who have laid their lives on the line, have mapped out a way of living that is revealed not in a set of words, but in a set of actions - neuro-physical organization. The movements create character in me that is tinged by that of all who went before. Jung used to refer to this by the word "numinous" - the archetype, the myth, the dance, whatever carries a kind of light, energy, power. I think of the difference between, for example, the headmaster of Jigen Ryu, doing the simplest of movements, the sight of which stops me in my tracks, and then of some individuals who have created their own "ryu" with swords or others who have homoginized various ryu into a "new" system. Both of these latter types display a fair amount of skill, but whom I have as much interest in watching them as I would the second runnerup in a Midwestern church social's tango contest (compare to a tango in a seedy, smokey bar in Argentina! - the same breathtaking fire as Togo sensei).

Respect

Ellis Amdur

[Kendoguy9]

hey everyone,

wow what a small world it is. just recently at school i took an East Asian geography class and one of the topics on our plates was modernity. it seems a very popular topic for college professors is Japan and westernization. what we got to was that in many cultures, women represented traditional culture and were something of the keepers of culture. anyway what the conversation led to was what kind of a culture does America have?!? almost all of it is borrowed from some other culture and really isn't our own, and we have no reason to do it other then it's cool or we want for lack of our own culture. what do we have? I would say in lack of culture we have mass consumerism. only in America do you find stores like Walmart and Sam's Club or BJ's (warehouse stores) a store that is open 24-7 and you can buy almost anything for super cheap. i equate Americans to the proverbial fat kid. feeling emptiness inside the fat kid goes home and eats food to fill the emotional void (of no friends or no skills in sports etc.). we too are like that. instead of doing cool traditional fun things (such as a traditional dances or some sort of craft) we go to the mall and buy junk fads we don't really need, to fill the void. and like the fat kid we are never really satisfied because our consumption isn't based on need but on an emptiness that mass consumerism leaves us.

do we have alternatives? yes, and four come to mind. try to get into a traditional American thing. an example of that here in Baltimore might be skipjack sailing or in other parts of the nation a folk art etc. another popular idea to follow is nationalism. you can go nuts for the stars and stripes and have a huge cookout on the 4th of July. fundamentalist religion is another alternative. i have a feeling that many people realize that this consumer culture we have created is ultimately shallow and in a stark reaction have opposed it with something very far from it. finally (the one i think most of us have chosen) is to steal someone else's culture and assimilate it into our own. i don't think it is by accident that things like Scottish games, Ren-fests, Cherry blossom festivals, Chinese New Years parades etc. have become so popular recently. geneology is becoming very popular.

the point of this was that many people in other countries such as Japan, or China or anywhere really actually want and embrace this consumer culture we have here in America. i have many friends from other countries (Nigeria, Japan, China, Germany etc.) who actually like the consumer culture because it is cool and it is free. very few cultural restrictions. it's no wonder kids shoot each other for tennis shoes or for sport ... they don't know what else to do!

:burnup:

sorry for the long rant
gambatte!!!

sorry for the long rant
gambatte!!!

[Rob]

Fascinating topic.

I would suggest that the interest in Budo in general and the Koryu in particular stems not from a search for a cultural mythology lacking in ones own culture but rather that the mythology and world view that these arts represent perhaps eptomise a world view and subconscious striving that has already been built from an individuals own experiences.

I have been born and raised in the UK which is no way lacking it's own cultural icons, history and myths. Many of these cultural myths are easily recongnisable in other cultures, every nation seems to have it's own 'Robin Hood' for example.

However since I first saw the Japanse martial arts I have been drawn to them. When you talk to almost anybody who has studied the arts seriously they tend to use phrases like drawn to, fascinated by, absorbed by.

From my own discussions with the various commited Budoka I have met over the years it seems to me that there are a number of common needs that they have which these arts satisfy.

The central tennent seems to be control. At their heart martial arts are about being able to control ones destiny and environment through control of oneself and where necessary others. Additionally Budo is about self improvement, central to the core of Budo is the idea that it is possible to improve and better oneself through constant practice.

To bring back the discussion back to where we started I've often thought that much of the mythology which is represented in older cultures is easily seen in American culture through that most american of cultural forms, the comic book. In many ways for me Batman epitomises the idea of the true budoka, a driven individual striving to improve oneself and then use those skills to improve the world around them.

Where I presume the practitioners of Koryu perhaps differ (and this is pure speculation until such time as I find a ) is in their sense of history and connection with the past. For the practicioner of gendai arts and especially the 'modern' western styles, the art it's techniques and it's application is enought.

For the member of the Koryu, (certainly for me as a Koryu wannabe !) it is the sense of flow, the connection with past and the notion of being something which is greater than any individual must also be part of the attraction.

I would suggest however that this need to belong and to be part of is rooted in an indivuals development and satisfied through their identification with the cultural myths and ideals of another culture rather than simple created by contact with that culture.

As a final point (is that a sigh of relief I hear?) I would like to point out that some of our esteemed posters on this very board, Messrs Amdur and Lowry,and the Skosses among others are adding to a specific sub culture. Whilst I may never find a teacher or join a Ryu, through their writings I can at least look through someone elses eyes and stand in their shoes and while I have now doubt I still over romantacise their experiences and under empahsise their sacrifices and commitment at least my knowledge and if you like my Koryu myths are rooted in some sort of sense of reality.

Earl,

You stated:

"So, when we get a mythology a la Joseph Campbell, what happens? George Lucas gets his hands on it and turns it into something on the side of a plastic drink cup from McDonalds."

LOL..... I understand where your coming from but I think that this version of commercialism is not necessarily a bad thing. Movies are a great way to tell mythological tales in todays world. It's the message in the myth that's important not so much the method of transmitting it. I guess the argument could be made that commercialism cheapens the myth but I'm not necessarily convinced of that. Campball and Lucas were bigtime buddies and George Lucas consulted Joseph Campbell in creation of the Star Wars storyline (which was greatly influenced by Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress") The fallen father, seduced by his darker psyche, who is redeemed by and through his love for his son is so rich in mythological themes and significance that I'm glad a MacDonalds drink cup may influence some little kid to rent that movie one weekend. Maybe that story will touch some kid the way "To kill a Mockingbird" touched me. That movie literally changed my world view as a child.... and talk about archetypes.... Atticus Finch......Man oh man!

Back on topic there's the "Seven Samurai", "Chushingura", "Ran", "Kwaidan" etc...These Japanese movies are busting with some of the greatest universally recognized hero characterizations ever put on film. Archetypes for sure, but with a subtly different quality from their western counterparts..... something I can't quite get my hands on.

Great stuff!

Toby Threadgill

[Earl Hartman]

Toby:

I've got only one thing to say:

Kurosawa rox!

Lucas sux!

Kurosawa sits on the right hand of G-d. Lucas is a fraud and a poseur, and the "myth" that he is purveying is pure poison. The first SW was a fun romp, but his vision of the universe is truly evil. Oh, so Darth Vader is "redeemed" by his love for his son after murdering billions, if not trillions, of people with no compunction? Sorry, DV doesn't deserve redemption. He deserves to burn in Hell and drink lava for the rest of eternity. Lucas' vision of a universe dominated by genetically superior "warrior sages" is fascist to its core. I don't want my kids learning anything from a steaming pile like that. Yoda? Don't make me laugh.

I don't think that there is a director on the planet who, while claiming Kurosawa as his inspiration, has so thoroughly and completely missed the point of Kurosawa's vision. Kurosawa was a true humanist, a real mensch, and his films really show his concern for people. Lucas doesn't give a damn about people. I don't think I've ever seen a more offensive and silly film than "The Phantom Menace". I absolutely hated it (OK, the special effects were great, the light saber fights were cool, and Natalie Portman is pretty, but other than that...). Lucas isn't qualified to do Kurosawa's laundry.

OK, rant over.

I will agree with you about "To Kill A Mockingbird", though. A great film.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree with the posters who have said that it is the identifiable tradition and personal nature of the classical ryu that is one of its attractions. I have, after more than 25 years of practicing kyudo under a variety of teachers and according to the modern standardized method, joined the Urakami Domonkai, a kyudo group dedicated to preserving the lineage and teachings of Urakami Sakae Hanshi of the Heki To Ryu. Should I wish to do so, I can research the lineage of his school, the Heki To Ryu (aka Heki Ryu Insai-ha), all the way back to its original founder, Yoshida Genpachiro Shigeuji, or, as he is known by his "bow name", Issuiken Insai. I now learn from Urakami Sakae Hanshi's daughter in law, Urakami Hiroko Hanshi. There is a coherence and and an integrity to the method and the approach which has been maintained precisely because, although members of this school actively participate in modern kyudo events, they have remained fundamentally faithful to the teachings of the ryu. I must say that this personal connection is the most important thing. It is as though I am a member of a family, with all of its quirks and idiosyncracies. I have entered into the "flow" of the ryu, which stretches back into the past and extends into the future, a future which depends, in part, ON ME. This personal stake in the ryu is what gives it its powerful attraction. There is a real feeling of being comrades dedicated to a common purpose, as opposed to being just individuals pursuing personal goals. This is one of the main things that separates the ryu from the modern disciplines, which are much more diffuse, bureaucratic, and standardized. This robs them of the feeling of personal connection.

It's sort of like buying the cheapest olive oil at Costco rather than hunting down the best Cold Pressed By Hand Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil at some out-of the-way Mom and Pop shop somewhere in the back alleys of a small Tuscan town, which, after you taste it, you say: "Yep, this is the best olive oil in the world!"

Earl,

" I don't think I've ever seen a more offensive and silly film than "The Phantom Menace". I absolutely hated it "

ROFLMAO!

Agreed!

I don't agree with you in general about Lucas but the Phantom Menace story line sucked big time. It's like he lost his focus completely. I guess he went for the kids only, forgetting that he had sizable following above the age of ..uh 7. It started with "Return of the Jedi" and the Ewoks. Argggggh.

As for the contradiction in the Star Wars myth concerning the evil DV committed? Heck, What about the Tanakah ? Yeeowww. We don't need to get too specific but there's some very difficult mythological themes to justify in the name of G-d if you take them literally. Mass murder , Rape, Genocide. Given the rich company of religious mythology, I'll cut Lucas a break on Darth Vader.

Back to Japan

I agree Akira Kurosawa.... and Masaki Kobayashi Rock bigtime. Kwaidan blows me away everytime I see it. The cinematography and storylines are so well executed that I am just mezmerized. "Hoichi the Earless" especially puts me in a trance. It's interesting, Japanese ghost stories / myths are so gothic in nature but they contain that unique Japanese twist that just pours ice water down my back. Nobody else has ever done anything quite like these guys. Ohh Ahhh.

Joseph Campbell was really onto something in his contention that almost all cultural myths have a common source but there's no denying that the Japanese flavor of these common themes is unique. I think I'm going to go home tonght, watch "Ran" and drink an Ichiban.

Tobs

[Earl Hartman]

Toby:

A discussion of Tanakh is a little beyond the scope of this particular BB, so I won't go into that. Suffice it to say that there are reams and reams of rabbinical commentary that turn most of the casual interpretations of biblical stories on their heads. And even G-d didn't destroy an entire world just to impress somebody. There was a moral reason for the Flood, for example (agree or not), but G-d didn't just say, "OK, I've got to impress this rebel chick with how powerful I am, so I'll just off her entire planet for effect". Anyway, I can kinda see yer point, (but only kinda) but we would need a lotta long nights and copious amounts of beer to get through this. Especially the genocide stuff. It is not what it seems to be at all.

"Hoichi The Earless" is my absolute fave of all of the stories in Kwaidan. Totally good stuff.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and commit what a lot of people on this board will probably consider blasphemy, but I really didn't like "Ran" that much at all. The cinematography was brilliant and the film was beautiful to look at, but it left me cold. For me, it lacked the humanity that I had come to expect from Kurosawa. Besides, Nakadai, normally one of my favorite actors, just devoured all of the scenery in sight. And those gallons and gallons of fire engine-red blood! I just laughed. It was so far removed from the realism that had been Kurosawa's trademark.

What do you think of "Seppuku"? I think it's one of Nakadai's best roles.

[Chuck Clark]

Great stuff, guys!

I agree with most of what you're both saying so I'll continue to lurk and enjoy. Since I'm acquainted with both of you, I can remember the glint in your eye when you get into this sort of discussion and can picture you both just now. Keep it up.

Cheers,

[Joseph Svinth]

While "America has no history" was the stated position of various Anglophilic US intellectuals of the 1880s, it's kind of a dated position a century later. After all, parts of Florida have been continuously settled by people of European and African descent since the 1540s, the Quebecois and the Mexicans have vibrant cultures (as does New Orleans), and the Indians/First Nations peoples have been here for between six and eighteen thousand years, depending on which group you're talking about.

And for that matter, while in the late nineteenth century there were still a lot of governments that traced roots to the Middle Ages, today the USA has the world's third oldest continuously operating government. (The Icelanding Althing dates to ca. 1000 AD, and the modern British government dates to the post-Cromwell reforms of the late 17th century.)

So, while you can look to McDonalds as the symbol of culture if you wish, don't forget that "Japan Times" has quoted Japanese schoolchildren asking if they have McDonalds in America, and the merchants owned a lot of Edo even pre-1868. Meanwhile, in a nod to those Dead White Males, it should also be noted that American culture also includes bourbon, national parks, handsewn quilts, and the Arizona Memorial. In short, all this is a long way of saying that the USA has its hallowed grounds. You just have to stop and read the roadside signs instead of always speeding by at 70 mph.

As for the topic at hand, IMO the allure of Japanese MA is the sense of community that they promise. Wa is a concept many North Americans don't understand real well, especially as juveniles and young adults, and for many of them, the first place they find it is in a martial arts class. A Skinner box, in other words -- you got a reward once, and so you keep returning to the place where the reward was given, in hopes of getting more...

[Kendoguy9]

Joe,
You are very right, there is some very rich culture here in America. I think that I am very fortunate to live in Baltimore Maryland, one of the oldest cities in the USA and a treasure trove of history and culture. Not even an hour West of me lives a small community of Amish who make a living by traditional arts, crafts, and food. We in Baltimore are fortunate to have a museum that has been rated one of the top five in the world. But many of these traditional quilts, and such are being very quickly replaced with blue light specials from Kmart and such places. Most monuments aren't really culture they are nationalism a celebration of government not old traditions we don't want to die out (how many people care about skipjack sailing? how many people know what a skipjack is?).

This cultural shift from tradition to consumerism is the same thing that is killing off our mythology and making the mythology of our children the cross-dressing millionare basketball player and pot smoking gangsta' rapper.

I don't think there is anything wrong with stealing myths from other countries to help suplant some traditions here in America. You know the kids that usually do traditional Scottish dance, or practice budo, or study any other folky/mythology filled art don't go around shooting each other for tennis shoes or drugs.

I think Toby was pointing in this direction, but, I don't think it is a small accident school shootings have gone up in recent years. In fact, perhaphs, angry children who have no real mythology to look to are now looking upon Colobine high school as a new (and very negetive) mythology to follow. I don't have any answers to this, if I did I would be famous.

gambatte!!!

Originally posted by Kendoguy9
Joe,
But many of these traditional quilts, and such are being very quickly replaced with blue light specials from Kmart and such places.
This cultural shift from tradition to consumerism is the same thing that is killing off our mythology and making the mythology of our children the cross-dressing millionare basketball player and pot smoking gangsta' rapper.
You know the kids that usually do traditional Scottish dance, or practice budo, or study any other folky/mythology filled art don't go around shooting each other for tennis shoes or drugs.
I think Toby was pointing in this direction, but, I don't think it is a small accident school shootings have gone up in recent years. In fact, perhaphs, angry children who have no real mythology to look to are now looking upon Colobine high school as a new (and very negetive) mythology to follow. I don't have any answers to this, if I did I would be famous.
gambatte!!!

YAMANTAKA : I think you are quite right, my friend! And we shouldn't forget that the Consumer Society is killing tradition everywhere. In today's Japan, people study japanese traditions at Hiroshima University with our friend PETER GOLDSBURY and are amazed and surprised by things they didn't know about their own culture. You'd also be surprised by the fact that the martial arts' philosophy and theory are much more studied in the West than in the East. Ask almost every japanese about martial arts' theory and you're sure to get a dumb look. That's why even some japanese think that perhaps even the koryu won't survive if they will are not transplanted to the West. Incredible, don't you think so?
Best

[Joseph Svinth]

I'll argue that those folk traditions die harder than people think, and that even there, the wa is critical. For example, my mother is a quilter, and she took first place or grand prize at least three times at the Western Washington Fair in Puyallup. Since The Puyallup is the fifth or sixth largest fair, in terms of attendance, in the US, this represents a reasonable accomplishment. Yet it isn't as if the quilts ever went on the bed, or that she was too poor to buy a Pendleton. Nor does she need the money, as to my knowledge, she's never sold one. (Given a bunch away, but never sold one.) Instead she likes hanging out with the other quilters. So a couple times a week she heads on down to the church, sews a bit, and comes on home. The product is clearly competent, but the companionship is ultimately more important. I honestly don't think that MA are all so much different.

As for the school shootings, they've been doing those since the introduction of reliable pocket pistols in the 1850s. In Texas, for example, Ben Thompson shot his first feller at fifteen, causing the Austin newspapers no end of outrage. Even drive-bys are hardly new. After all, Al Capone and Clyde Barrow were doing those in the 1920s. Read a newspaper from 1910, and you find earthquakes in Japan, civil war in Serbia, massacres in the Congo, corruption in Congress, and sportswriters complaining that ballplayers' salaries were paid more than the President of the United States. It's just that with television, everything seems more immediate.