tsuri-otoshi/tsuri-komi?

can anyone describe a sacrifice tech. known as tsuri-otoshi?

was there also a sac. technique known as tsuri-komi?

jeff slade

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by jimmy o'curry
can anyone describe a sacrifice tech. known as tsuri-otoshi?

was there also a sac. technique known as tsuri-komi?

jeff slade

Not in Kodokan Judo AFAIK.
Nearest match I can think of is sumi otoshi, but that's no sutemiwaza.

Danzan ryu jujutsu has a sutemiwaza called tsurigane otoshi -- it somewhat resembles yokowakare.

There's also a DZR cognate of KDK sumi otoshi, called tsurikomi daoshi.

I agree with Brian, no sac. throws by that name. There are two koshiwaza; tsurikomi-goshi and tsurigoshi.

Mark

yokoyama listed it as a ma-sutemiwaza, but i haven't found a description.

jeff slade

there is a sumo throw by this name, but i don't think their version is a sac.

Jeff,
I've got a copy on a disc, so let me look through it (The book by Yokoyama "Judo Kyohan.")

Mark

Jeff,
You are absolutely correct, but I couldn't find a listing for it in the index, but on page 105 in Judo Kyohan it is listed along with the rest of the ma-sutemi (front sacrifice) waza. Tsuriotoshi.

After this book was released there was a major revision of the gokyo no waza, so I'm guessing it was relaced with something else.

Anyone else know anything of this throw? Imaginations are welcome.

The suggestions that it may be from another style, considering the time, are probably correct, as it obviously was dropped from the KDK.

Mark

BTW: Tsurikomi is a throwing style, lifting and pulling, as in Harai- Tsurikomi ashi.

come on, forumites; help me out!

jeff slade

Jimmy,
I left you a hint as to where you could find the throw, as I had this in my files, though a description of it would probably go back to the lage 1870s or early 1880s. This is from a chapter of a book on Pacific Northwest Judo, due to come out late this year, perhaps early 2002, I'm not sure, but it will be included, perhaps with more of a description, though I doubt it.

So much for the supposed terrors and strictness of Grandpa’s day.
Kano and other judo teachers attended a conference in Kyoto in July 1906 that began the national standardization of judo.

Changes adopted as the result of this meeting included judogi sleeves and trousers being lengthened from mid-arm and knee-length to wrist and ankle length. The idea was to prevent mat burns. Also nage-no-kata (“Forms of Throwing”) had two throws altered. Specifically, sukuinage was changed to kataguruma and tsuriotoshi was changed to sumigaeshi.

_____________

I'm sorry I don't have anything else on it, but you may be fairly certain that they were similar, though I don't know about it being a ma-sutemi waza.

So this is why there isn't much on the throw. It was an early one, which Kano decided to toss out, though considering the year of the original Japanese book Judo Kyohan, I think that is why it appeared there. Time gets us all in the end.

Mark

BTW: I think, if this information is correct, and I am sure, that sumi gaeshi is probably similar to tsuri-otoshi.

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by MarkF
I'm sorry I don't have anything else on it, but you may be fairly certain that they were similar, though I don't know about it being a ma-sutemi waza.

If it took the place of sumigaeshi in nage no kata, then the one thing we can be certain of is that it must be a masutemiwaza.

BTW: I think, if this information is correct, and I am sure, that sumi gaeshi is probably similar to tsuri-otoshi.

I would expect them to be at least as similar as, let's say, kataguruma is to sukuinage.
FWIW, Ito Kazuo also mentions tsuriotoshi in "This is Judo for Women."
On one page he lists it among the masutemiwaza, in a classification chart of throws that looks just like the one in Yokoyama's book. Later on, in an index , the following entry appears:

"Tsuri...hang Otoshi...drop or fell
One of the throws belonging to the hand technique."

...so maybe it's a tewaza after all!

okay; thanks, guys. i e-mailed the kano society; maybe somebody over there can further describe the tech.

jeff slade

Hi, Brian,
I was being literal, as in "I don't know" one way or the other, but thought as you did that it would be similar. I was trying to picture a lifting throw that was a sutemiwaza and not a makikomi waza.

The book will be out soon with photos so it may reveal more.

Mark

BTW, Jeff. If you are asking in general at the Society, ask Dr. Diana Birch. She is also a student of John Cornish, I believe. From there, you can reach those at the Budokwai. I don't know why I didn't mention it before, or I spaced and thought I was writing about the Society.

Mark

PS: You can also ask in the forum (that is probably where you did ask, and while it isn't all that active, with patience I've received some fine nuggets from it).

You may find an oldtimer at the IJF forum, too.

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by MarkF
I was trying to picture a lifting throw that was a sutemiwaza and not a makikomi waza.

It may not involve a "lift" per se. Tsuri can also mean "hang/suspend."

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Brian Griffin

"Tsuri...hang Otoshi...drop or fell
One of the throws belonging to the hand technique."

That just trigger a memory. I vaguely remember reading of a technique where you grab both lapels and drop like yoko-wakare. If the throw doesn't work you've got a hanging choke.

Originally posted by dakotajudo


That just trigger a memory. I vaguely remember reading of a technique where you grab both lapels and drop like yoko-wakare. If the throw doesn't work you've got a hanging choke.

Strangely enough, the name of this technique, Kensui Jime, translates into English as .... drum roll please... *Hanging Choke*

Take both lapels, high by the neck, do a Yoko Wakare like move, and take the *outside* leg, swing up and over uke's head for control. I also learned another method, which starts the same way, but instead of a sideways Yoko Wakare, you go all the way to uke having you in Kamishihogatame... (more spin...) but your hands are now nicely crossed for what I guess you could call "Ushiro Nami Juji Jime" (?!) Unfortunately, if Uke caught on to what you were doing before the choke became effective, he could just spin a little, and have you in Yokoshihogatame. That can't happen in the first version... (another reason for the leg controlling the head - to prevent uke's move into Yokoshiho...)