Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai

Amatsu sensei's viewpoint about Daito ryu is a bit different. Here is link to the his homepage:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/

It doesn't contain much stuff yet, but it is still worth of visiting.


Amatsu sensei has also written an article about Hisa Takuma and Daito-ryu. It is available in our (Takumakai,Finland) home page:
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

I hope you find these links interesting.

Jyri Lamminmaki
Daito-ryu Takumakai, Finland

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Lamminmaki,

Interesting page. Thanks for posting it.

On the page under "techniques", the following is listed:

After I [was] promoted to 6th Dan (6 degree), Hisa taught me in a one-on-one style. He stressed these 3 points:

1. Do not just throw the enemy. Throw him in order to attack his joints. Daito ryu's main objective is to attack the joints.

2. Use your legs. Legs are stronger than arms.

3. Daitoryu has no Atemi (striking). When it looks like striking it is a trick for attacking joints.

This is quite interesting. The idea of using the legs to pin the opponent is very logical, though most of these pins seem to be used in Jujutsu as opposed to the Aikijujutsu (is this the case?)

Point number one seems to say that, rather than simply throwing the enemy down in any fashion (such as a Judo-style hip throw), that it is important to lock the joints up during the throw, and keep them locked through to the pin. If this is true, it is another interesting point.

But the most thought provoking point is the third, in which Amatsu Sensei says that Hisa S. taught to replace atemi opportunities with joint locks instead. That is hard to imagine in some cases, but a very interesting idea.

Anyone care to discuss or comment on any of these points?

Regards,

[CKohalyk]

Mr. Scott,


>The idea of using the legs to pin the opponent is very >logical, though most of these pins seem to be used in >Jujutsu as opposed to the Aikijujutsu (is this the case?)

I believe Amatsu-sensei is referring to striking here. He always says that since the legs are many times stronger than the arms, don't bother using arms for atemi. Use a joint-lock to throw the enemy down, then strike with the legs.

But Jyrki-san knows more about this than I do.

CK

OK, Nathan, you just gotta prove your point using what is not true necessarily of judo, don't ya?

Transition in judo is not 1,2,3, but maintaing a lock on the opponent is a tried and true manner of control, and it ain't no secret, either! While rule of shiai or randori say one should not "wrestle" one to the mat, tori can take a skeletal lock, using atemiwaza to unbalance the opponent, taking him down with the appropriate nage, maintaining control, is tested and true, even with a "basic judo hip throw."

I won't mention the word, but sometimes it is just there and while uke may feel it, tori won't even realize just what it was that he used to take down his uke.

Of course, this is just the omote of judo. You won't know the ura for at least three decades, if that. It takes a firm commitmant to judo, just to open the door. If you are there after this, then you may understand this, and even then you may not. Hehehe.

Next lesson, we will visit the most ancient of judo kata, ko shiki no kata, but remember to bring your armor.

Mark

[Nathan Scott]

Sorry Mark-san. Didn't think I'd get nabbed for that.

My reference to Judo was of standard olympic style, which is by far the most common type of Judo seen and understood by most. When most people say "Judo", that is what they think of. When the day come that the majority of Judo reverts back to Kodokan style Judo, then people will have to change their generalization of the art, eh?

Creating pressure against the joints and creating a joint lock are two diffenent things. A joint lock is a "lock", and mean the joint is immobolized. To the best of my knowledge, joint locks are illegal in Judo because it is far to easy to break uke's joints if they are allowed to lock. Even some of the older Kodokan Judo stuff I've played with seems to involve more emphasis on tewaza to create a more refined kuzushi and resultant technique. This isn't the place for discussions of Judo though, I guess...

But in any event, perhaps that was not an accurate example to use. My point was that, judging from what was written by Amatsu Sensei, DR as taught in the Takumakai appears to emphasize performing skeletal locking in order to perform throws. This idea is different from how some Jujutsu styles (including modern Judo) perform throws by sweeping, or off balancing/leverage. It's not a matter of better or worse, just different.

Regards,

Amatsu-sensei might have been speaking of ura-kata himself in this case? (Not sure.)

1. Do not just throw the enemy. Throw him in order to attack his joints. Daito ryu's main objective is to attack the joints.

2. Use your legs. Legs are stronger than arms.

3. Daitoryu has no Atemi (striking). When it looks like striking it is a trick for attacking joints.
***********************************

Gentlemen

You are going to have a difficult time fleshing this out.

First:
To say "Daito ryu's main objective is this"
OR "Daito ryu is this or that" are very definitve statements aren't they?
Personally When I hear such things, I ask myself "This gentleman's statement is based on which Daito *RYU*?
Do you suppose the Daito kan teaches the same techniques as the the takumakai? Roppokai? etc. Do you think the manner in which they express Aiki are all the same?
Secondly:
These statements are not very detailed. I could (for example) make an argument that his statement regarding the legs may have nothing at all to do with "Striking with the legs", as postulated here.
Positional placement of the legs, in many jujutsu arts will (in a technical sense) do many things, with the use of the legs to pin the opponent when he is *down* (mentioned as well) being only ONE part of the use of the legs. In deeper arts they also have subtle uses to pin an opponent in place while he is standing up, or in dropping him. Moreover, use of the legs to "effect various responses" in someones joints is a lengthy discussion in and of itself. Any discussion of the use of the legs is pointless without a rather detailed discussions of entering methodology, vectoring, use of placement of center, upper body and well.....everything else. "Trying to brace the roots, when the branches are freely swaying" is a pointless exercise.
Further, You could talk till you were blue in the face. TKD people, Judoka, Bujinkan, Aikido, Yanagi ryu and all manner of everyone else could say "AHH! Yes! yes! I get it. We do it too."
Then you watch them
They are NOT doing the same movement, or effecting the same principles....

AND that is just ONE sentence. The other two statements are a week's worth of discussions. Yet very little, if anything will be gained discussing it. The people who really know, won't discuss it anyway.

regards
Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 11-09-2000 at 07:08 AM]

[Brently Keen]

I agree with Dan.

In Daito-ryu (at least in the Roppokai branch) we do have many different ways of striking/attacking the enemy. Unless Amatsu-san was purposely being vague or misleading though (which is possible), our concepts and interpretations of what constitutes atemi and striking may be quite different.

One could actually observe Roppokai practice for a long time and hardly (if ever) see conventional atemi or striking techniques. And therefore come to the conclusion that atemi are not included or practiced by our group. However, as is often the case in Daito-ryu the truth is hidden beneath the surface. It's intentionally not obvious, so you can't even see it.

First it depends on how you define "atemi", and what constitutes atemi. Then it also depends on how and in what context one uses atemi.

Ueshiba said that aikido was 90% atemi. What does that mean to most people? What did HE actually mean when he said that? What was he talking about?

Lot's of people who practice aikido actually reject this whole idea. Others use this statement to validate the addition of striking techniques from other arts into their aikido - usually in order to be more "practical", "street effective", or combative. Many people think this is the difference between aikijujutsu and aikido, but that's just another myth. IMO neither are correct, but that's aikido. From my perspective within Daito-ryu, the conventional conception of "atemi" as "punching" is not only dangerous, it's almost laughable, or as my seniors used to say "nonsense".

Amatsu-san is correct when he says we don't have atemi in Daito-ryu (but I would add "conventional" atemi). Sokaku Takeda said, "...we will not strike, we will not kick, we will not kill." But what did he mean by that? That we do not have striking, kicking or killing techniques? What about the famous "ichigeki hissatsu" techniques? One of the first things you have to learn when you study aiki is that reality and appearances are two different things, in fact things are hardly ever what they seem to be. A clue is found in what Sokaku said in his next few sentences, "It is completely for self-defense..."

Some of you are probably wondering why I'm contradicting myself here, because in other posts I've talked about the combative or "jutsu" aspect of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as a classical system (koryu bujutsu) as opposed to the more self-defense oriented modern (gendai budo) styles of jujutsu/aikido. I'm not, it's merely a paradox that only seems contradictory until it's seen in the right light and/or in it's proper context. Sorry, but even as a member of perhaps the most open, progressive branch of Daito-ryu, I don't think a public forum such as this is the proper context in which to divulge those "secrets".

I suppose I've said enough already. Good post Dan.

Brently

[Earl Hartman]

Just a quick note about atemi. The word is composed of two Chinese characters: "ateru" (usually meaning to strike) and "mi" (body). Thus, "striking body".

It should come as no surprise to anyone that this could mean different things to different people. In Nagao Ryu, for instance, atemi can be either a quick strike with the hand or foot, or it can involve grasping/attacking "kyusho" (vital points) as a component of unbalancing and throwing, or as a finishing technique. There is also subtle atemi involved in how the attacker's hand/arm is grasped. None of these things are as obvious as a "karate style" punch or kick, so as Brently says, they are not out in the open. I am not that familiar with aikido or aikujujutsu, but I have had aikido practitioners demonstrate certain wristlocks such as sankyo on me. The way in which the wrist is manipulated involves atemi, that is, attacks to certain anatomical weak points or nerve bundles in the hand and wrist, which can render the recipeient helpless. These are contained within the technique, which looks like nothing more than a wrist twist to the uninitiated, and so are not visible as discrete strikes. Thus, while they don't look like what people think atemi might look like, they are atemi nonetheless. In many Nagao Ryu kata, success or failure depends entirely upon whether the initial atemi attack to the target kyusho is successful or not.

On one of the Daito Ryu websites (I can't remember which one) there is a picture of Tokimune Sensei. The thing about the picture that was most immediately noticable to me was the obvious strength of Tokimune Sensei's hands and wrists. The reason I noticed this is because my Nagao Ryu sensei had incredibly strong wrists and fingers; for such a small man his grasping strength was phenomenal. Once he laid his hands on a kyusho, it was all over. To an onlooker, it would appear that he was only touching a person; in reality a kyusho was being attacked. This is very subtle, and without knowing what to look for, it can't be seen, as Brently says. This is not to say that Daito Ryu and Nagao Ryu atemi techniques are the same, so we don't need to go over that again. I only offer the Nagao Ryu example as another part of the mix.

Earl


[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-10-2000 at 12:19 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

To change the subject a bit...

I came across an interesting article in Aiki News #85 (1990), called "Daito-ryu Aiki Budo", by Takuma Hisa. It is an article he wrote for a magazine called "Shin Budo", published in 1942:

"Sokaku Takeda was born in Aizu wakamatsu-cho, Fukushima Prefecture. From boyhood he learned kendo, and at the age of 18, he received a license in Nito-ryu, and later received licensesin Ono-ha itto ryu, and Jikishinkage ryu."

I suppose the "Nito-ryu" may have been that which is taught in kendo, but I'd be interested to learn more about this. As some of you may have noticed, there is a level of trasmission in Daito ryu named "Daito ryu Aiki Nito-ryu", and the Saigo-ha group has a book written in Japanese called "Daito ryu Aiki Nito Ken". Dubious as they may be, there may be a trace of truth in the book somewhere. I haven't tried to translate any of it yet though, so I have no idea right now.

"From that time we not only devoted ourselves to training under Ueshiba sensei regardless of the severity of the weather, but even invited Ueshiba sensei's teacher, Sokaku Takeda Dai-sensei, the headmaster of the art, all the way from Hokkaido to teach us the secret arts of Daito ryu which were forbidden to be taught to outsiders."

Whether Sokaku s. was invited to the Asahi Shimbun to replace Ueshiba s. by his own students, or whether Sokaku had appeared on his own accord after learning of Morihei's position there has been the subject of much unresolved controversy.

Takuma s. clearly states in this article that he had invited Sokaku s. This is a significant statement, but I'm still not convinced that it is a fact based soley on this article. Upon reading the entire article, it appears as if Takuma s. was very patriotic and confident. He sounds as if he is selling the art, and himself, and several things he says in there appear to be, at the very least, exaggerated, and perhaps even created in order to show his experience, resolve and "Yamato" spirit.

Thats not to say that this statement is incorrect though. I've often thought it might be the case myself, and the fact that Takuma s. is comfortable with saying so, whether true or not, shows that they did not respect Ueshiba s. - at least at that time.

Keep in mind also that Takuma s. and the other students had been recreating the techniques and photographing them without the knowledge of either instructor, which they would have surely posed for themselves if they were willing to document them on film. I'm not trying to put down Takuma s. and it's members, but this is the history of their study, even though the photographic records are now considered a very valuable resource.

There is another interesting statement, that may or may not be accurate:

"A fellow student, Yoshiteru Yoshimura, who had been devoting himself tirelessly to his training was the first one to be honored by being called into service. He fought in one place after another in battles which took place deep in China. With the secret techniques of Daito ryu he was undefeatable and found the techniques to be very effective in a real setting."

Mr. Ellis Amdur made a comment in an Aikido Journal collumn once that he felt Daito ryu waza did not follow koryu methodology in some ways, and that the techniques were overly complicated for combative situations.

I'd be interested to know if he was referring to the jujutsu or the aikijujutsu techniques, and how they are more complicated. The preceding quote may have been propaganda written by Takuma s., or it may not have been. Guess we'll never know for sure.

Takuma s. also mentions that he "published a book introducing the teachings of Daito ryu called Kanagara no Budo (The Martial Art of the Kami) in 1940, which coincided with the glorious anniversary of the 2600th year of the reign of Emperor Jimmu."

I wonder if this has survived anywhere outside the guarded reach of the Takumakai? There are apparently other published books I hadn't heard of before, one called "Urawaza hiden" (the Secrets of Technique Reversals) published in 1941, and another called "Joshi Budo" (Martial Arts for Women).

[Ron Tisdale]

I believe Jose Garrido teaches in NYC. He posts occationally on the aikido journal web site. I can't vouche for his technique, but his information always seems good. I believe he participates in Kondo Sensei's seminars as well.

Ron Tisdale

[Arman]

The point on atemi is fairly vague. In mainline Daito-ryu, however, atemi is clearly an element of many kata (to the ribs, to the face, and to various other points on the body). Some are hard strikes, others are distracting strikes.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Atemi

A fundamental Ideal of "good" jujutsu is to take an opponents balance at the moment of contact-and to not release, fade, evade, or otherwise "lose it" from there. As such, ate waza-is an adjunct to building and or maintaining, kuzushi. For that reason, atemi is more than a simple striking of a body part. Captured correctly, your forward moving hip or shoulder movement can cause what feels like a punch to their center or shoulders. While it "feels" mysterious, it is entirely structural and sound in principle. Using your own hips or Thorax to connect makes an "in-motion" atemi that is not fun to take and its use is in standing technique or to help smother on the ground is in Koryu jujutsu.

Nathan
I share your confusion about Hisa. In his interview in Stanley's book he clearly states that Takeda simply "showed up." page 110
When asked to clarify he restates it clearly that he had no idea Sokaku was coming or who he was! He describes the encounter with him as if he had no idea what he looked like, and other then hearing his name from Ueshiba Sensei he couldn't believe the "little old guy" would be able to do much.

As to his being dismissive of Ueshiba I wouldn't go that far.
He was clearly taken by the superior technique of Takeda (a re-occuring theme for all who met them both-even those who disliked Sokaku Sensei)
quote: page 118
__________________________________________

"Everyone had been absorbed in Ueshibas beautiful techniques; but right then we became completely facinated by the strong techniques of this old master...........everyone there immediately bowed low at sensei's feet and asked to become his student......no matter how many times Sokaku Sensei said he would teach me I couldn't believe it was true it was unbelievable!"

_____________________________________________


It is interesting to note Tokimune's observational opinion of Hisa's technique.

quote:
__________________________________
"But when it came to the details of technique, Ueshiba Sensei was better. Mr. Ueshiba studied with Sokaku for a much longer time."
__________________________________

There is a picture of Tokimune standing with Sokaku, Hisa, Tonedate (another Menkyo recipient, although I still count Kodo) at the Asahi newspaper. So it would appear that Tokimune was there to know.

At any rate, I think it is clear that Ueshiba's technique was superb, even though it was less than Takeda.



Nito ryu

You should ask, I think you will find they are not taught as sword techniques per se.



Undefeatable?

Our intrepid Mr. Yoshimura, may have "found the techniques to be very effective in a real setting." and he may have been quite the soldier but with all the "secret techniques of Daito ryu" at his disposal -he was most certainly "defeatable!"
I would call him lucky or blessed to have come home in one piece.

The "undefeatable statements" whether "as quoted" or not, really should not be repeated anymore in my opinion. It is patently ridiculous, particularly when placed in a war environment. I equate these statements to the Golden light, bullet dodging, light bulbs going off nonsense of some early Ueshiba followers. We should be embarassed to repeat them.

Daito ryu secret techniques make you undefeatable?
Please!

I know you do not ascribe to such philosophy-I make it as a generalized statement only.

I loved your quiet reserved comments about filming the techniques without approval behind closed doors (and backs) and the mentioning of them as being considered a valued resource today!

Done today, in the same way,
I wonder what everyone would say?

Then again I would love to see how many of these legends would fair in todays open environment.

Whats that??
What what?
Is that mist coming up around your feet Nathan?
On a quiet day, an ill wind is known to bring rummbling roarring sounds down around me...and many have been slain by the results!

Dan
"who can barely dodge snowballs
I'll leave the bullets to those who can "see" them coming.

Complexity and Koryu methodology:

I think “seeing” the complexity of techniques in many arts is a frequent mistake in observation of what Kata try to convey. I can draw a corollary to TSKSR; many who see the long involved Kata think that they convey a series of techniques that are supposed to happen that way, and that there is a winner and loser.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
So, seeing Kata in a fashion that you perceive to be the way they are to used would lead to one opinion
Studying to use Kata and know their principles in a fashion where they work in a rapid response or force on force venue may lead to an alltogether different opinion.
Or maybe not.

My gosh you could write several pages on that one subject alone

Dan

[Nathan Scott]

Yeah, I agree with everything your saying Dan.

The "undefeatable" part of the quote was not the subject of focus. I could have chosen to paraphrase the quote, but generally, I'd prefer to quote directly with references in order to reduce the amount of assumptions on my part. Also, you can get a feel for the personalities and tone by the way in which articles are written.

Hisa sensei sounds very confident and patriotic. Judging from his writing, I get the impression that he would say what he felt was considered appropriate at the time.

There is something to be said for the age of the teacher too. It can be noted in many, if not most cases, that an instructor in the latter years of his life will tend to be much more forthcoming with ranks than they were in their younger years. Concerns for the continuation of their art becomes paramount in their mind, and influential people are sometimes chosen to ensure that the art survives.

Not to take away anything from Hisa sensei, but Stan Pranin also pointed this out in one of his older editorials, though more in regard to new arts.

Rank needs to be kept in perspective with the atmosphere in which it was given.