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woolston
8th July 2002, 10:54
Can anyone tell me about either of the following kata:

Chikin no kun
Suuji no kun

Many thanks,

Steve Woolston
ENGLAND

CEB
9th July 2002, 14:55
What kobudo traditions are the bo kata you are inquiring about coming from? I can only tell you what I have been told. It is all oral transmission from my teacher to me. Since no one else has answered your inquiry I tell you what Ive been told.

Chikin Bo This kata was originally called Tsuken Shita Haku no Kun. The man who taught this kata to Hohan Soken was named Chikin Kraka so today the kata is known as Chikin Bo. I could go into the waza a little more but I would like to know if we are dealing with the same form first. I dont want to waste your time.

Suuji no Kun I was told by my Kobudo teacher that Suuji and Shuishi are different names for the same form.

If you could describe the first few moves of each of the two forms we maybe able to help you out a little more once we have a common frame of reference. Some Kobudo forms have the same name but look completely different. Hoken Soken told a interesting story about how this happened in an interview he gave. I have it in a doc file Ill cut and paste it as a post.

Hope this is helps some. Once we get on the same page we may be able to help some more.

CEB
9th July 2002, 15:41
Originaly posted by Ed Boyd ... An excerpt from the Estrada interview with Soken Hohan. I can post the whole thing. I don't think there is a copyright issue. This thing has been plastered all over the net. Many people have even tried to take undue credit for it. It is up to Doug if he wants it posted. If you do let me know if I should put it in the Kobudo or empty hand forum. Ed,

Many, many, many apologies ... I hit edit instead of quote when replying to you original post. As a result, I deleted it :(. Please repost if you have it available somewhere (I hope).

woolston
9th July 2002, 16:21
The two kata that I was enquiring about were:

Chikin no kun - This form was taught to me by Koeppel Sensei, so is of the Matsumura Seito lineage. The common part of the kata is a small circular movement with the end of the bo, followed by a poke.

Suuji no kun - I have only just started looking at this form, working from the Yamanni Ryu video featuring Oshiro Sensei.

Hope these explanations help a little so that the more experienced may be able to elaborate on the history/background of these kata.

CEB
9th July 2002, 17:06
Good, We are discussing same Chikin Bo kata. The bulk of my Kobudo comes from Sensei Koeppel. I had learned my Chikin Bo from a man named Ken Penland. The ending of the forms are little different but the rest of the form are pretty much the same. I don't know anything about Yammani Ryu but there are some Yammani Ryu Yudansha on this forum who maybe of some help to you.


Some of the legends around Chikin Bo is that it comes from Tsuken island. Tsuken Island I'm told served as a prison island and as a military garrison for the Sho Kings. The primary purpose of the Sho's military was prevent civil insurrection not to guard against Chinese and Japanese invaders. This would have been futile. It makes sense to have kept the army away from the civil populus that it may have to put down. You didn't want to have the soliders getting to freindly with the native villiagers.

Chikin no Kun comes from the spear. In Chikin no Kun everything is done with one end of the Bo. If you notice the end you poke and "block" with is the end that is pointing down when you start from Tsuken no Kamae. This is because you want to keep the pointy end of the spear in front where you can see it. You don't want to accidentlly cut your buddy's ears or tear up a wall or something.

The circular kake uke type movements done in Chikin are small. Real small. Nothing like Kake uke done in Matayoshi Kobudo. One interpretation is that the orienatal spear heads are triangular shape just like the fold out bayonets on the Chinese AKs. The small circles can represent the quarter turn twist once you poke some one through. The spear head works like a apple corer and creates a quarter size hole ( about one inch ). There wasn't much that could be done to stop the bleeding. The wound was deadly. Also the rowing type spin manipulations should be close to the body. I was taught you should be able to do this is a door way. Idea was so that you could do them in a castle hall way. I do the ending like this also but I end the kata with a tsuski movement. Koeppel Sensei final technique is the big swinging strike. That is a liitle about the kata.

Will you be in Peoria in a couple weeks? I know quite a few people are coming over from Europe. I hope you can make it should be a great time. I'll be there Maybe we will meet. Let me know if need anything. If you have any questions ask. Private message me if you want. I see Koeppel Sensei once or twice a month. If you don't have a direct line of communication to him I can pass questions on to him.

Take care.

Rob Alvelais
9th July 2002, 18:40
Might that vigorous circular motion (destined to take the place of the mudshark in your mythology) be a what we Yamani people call Maki Uke? (Winding Block)

Rob

CEB
9th July 2002, 19:09
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Might that vigorous circular motion (destined to take the place of the mudshark in your mythology) be a what we Yamani people call Maki Uke? (Winding Block)

Rob

I don't know anything about Yamani Ryu. But Maki would be a fitting name I believe. A vigorous circlar movement about the size of a saucer plate. Small circle not big like a dinner plate.

woolston
9th July 2002, 20:18
John Sells - Unante

In the village of Nishihara, at about the same time, lived a famous staff expert named Chikin Kraka (1829-1898). He is most recognised by the Japanese pronunciation of his name, Tsuken Hantaka. Chikin, who became a farmer during the Meiji Restoration, gave to the practice of bo arts several Chikin-Bo (Tsuken-Bo) kata and possibly the Chikinsunakake no Kon (Tsukensunakake no Kon) for the boat oar, or eku. He supposedly gained his expertise on Yaeyama island. One of his most famous direct disciples was Nishihara village's Komesu Ushi (Bushi Komesu no Tanme, 1854-1920), who taught kobujutsu to Soken Hohan of Shorin-ryu fame.

I still know very little about the Yamanni Ryu school of bojutsu - can anyone give me a bit of the history behind the style?

Steve Woolston
ENGLAND

Rob Alvelais
9th July 2002, 23:48
Originally posted by woolston

I still know very little about the Yamanni Ryu school of bojutsu - can anyone give me a bit of the history behind the style?

Steve Woolston
ENGLAND

Dude,

You've got the Yamani Ryu video by Oshiro. The whole first half of the thing is nothing but history!

Sanda Chinen>>> Masami Chinen>>> Chogi Kishaba>>>>Toshihiro Oshiro. That's the lineage. You might also look here:
http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo.html

So you should have it all now.

Rob

woolston
10th July 2002, 07:40
Mr Alvelais,

I haven't actually got a copy of the video myself, so it sounds as though I will have to invest in a copy if it has all the information that I want - thank you for the tip!!

In the meantime, I'll be checking out the Oshiro Sensei website.

Respectfully,

Steve Woolston
ENGLAND

Doug Daulton
17th July 2002, 04:04
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais ... Might that vigorous circular motion (destined to take the place of the mudshark in your mythology) be a what we Yamani people call Maki Uke? (Winding Block) Rob Thank God I am not the only Zappa fan here! :)

CEB
17th July 2002, 04:11
Originally posted by Doug Daulton
Thank God I am not the only Zappa fan here! :)

Oh no you're not Apostrophe was an awesome album!

Doug Daulton
17th July 2002, 04:13
Originally posted by CEB ... An excerpt from the Estrada interview with Soken Hohan. I can post the whole thing. I don't think there is a copyright issue. This thing has been plastered all over the net. Many people have even tried to take undue credit for it. It is up to Doug if he wants it posted. If you do let me know if I should put it in the Kobudo or empty hand forum. Ed,

By all means, please post the interview. It is an excellent resource. Please cite Estrada-san and the source (mine came from Dan Kogen & Steve Radulovich's old site Okinawa Kenjyujo). It is probably best posted as a new thread in the Unarmed forum with a reference post/link here.

Thanks,

Doug

PS: I inadvertantly deleted part of your original post (see above). A thousand apologies.

Doug Daulton
17th July 2002, 04:18
Originally posted by CEB ... Suuji no Kun I was told by my Kobudo teacher that Suuji and Shuishi are different names for the same form.This is my understanding as well. The two terms are variations of Uchina-guchi (Okinawan-speaking). Another alternate spellig is Soeshi no Kon. Note: This kata is different than Shushi no Kon (Sho and Dai). The names are reaallly similar to the untrained ear .. but completely different kata.

CEB
17th July 2002, 15:24
Originally posted by Doug Daulton
Ed,

By all means, please post the interview. It is an excellent resource. Please cite Estrada-san and the source (mine came from Dan Kogen & Steve Radulovich's old site Okinawa Kenjyujo). It is probably best posted as a new thread in the Unarmed forum with a reference post/link here.

Thanks,

Doug

......

The Estrada interview with Soken Hohan is posted here.
Interview with Hohan Soken (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12886)

fuwafuwausagi
4th August 2002, 03:11
Ed Boyd wrote:

Chikin Bo This kata was originally called Tsuken Shita Haku no Kun.

My reply:

Hello, may I ask where you got the alternate name for Chikin Bo from? Since this form is part of my lineage I wish learn all I can about it.

Has anyone seen or "know" the other kata attributed to Tsuken Hantaka/Chikin? I was wondering as to the diffrences or emphasis in the kata.

Thanking you in advance for any consideration you give this matter,