View Full Version : Should we enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man ?

Michael Clarke
4th October 2002, 05:01
Looking at the way some street warriors and all round mean dudes live out their infant like aggresion on this forum, I wonder, "Should we even have a battle of wits with people who are so ill equipped to fight back?"

My own feeling is "No".

But I just know there are some out there who will see it differently.

Peace and love to all,
(especially Antonio, who I suspect is really very sweet)

Mike Clarke.

Goju Man
5th October 2002, 11:50
Micheal, I don't understand this thread. You throw around the fact you were imprisoned, fighting for life without the aid of the martial arts. You ripped Higaonna Sensei a new whole on this forum. You claim to be battle tested yet your last test was twenty years ago. You started a thread about fighting and still haven't answered the question. How do you know where you are? Just because you learned twelve or more kata since you were incarcerated? What's your measuring stick? Too many people confuse fighting proficiency with knoledge of an art. I know some practitioners who are excellent at teaching the art but just aren't very good fighters. Would we enter into a battle of wits? I can't beleive that you are talking about this. You certainly didn't have any sympathy when you were attacking Higaonna, who has to be one of the most well respected martial artist out there. I don't get it. :rolleyes:

Michael Clarke
6th October 2002, 13:40
Okay, first off I did not attack Higaonna sensei for his fighting ability. I have been on the recieving end of his fighting ability many times and know it to be powerfull. My "Ripping of a new hole" as far as he was concerned had to do with his claims to be the one and only true successor to Miyagi Chojun sensei. On this point I will always have a problem. The funny thing is, you and a few other folk from Florida seem to accept him as a great fighter even though he has never entered a tournament, let alone won one, and never(to the best of my knowledge) had a real fight.
My history was not thrown around as you put it, but included in a thread by way of background to where I was getting my opinions from.
This is no different from others saying they have a military background or a history of working the doors, to explain the way they have come to hold the views they have. I take no pride,nor hold no shame for my past exploits. I was young and stupid back then and I paid for it. Still, the things I have experienced have lead me to where I am now.
Budo, as far as I'm concerned is about STOPPING fights, not having them on a regular basis just to keep proving to myself that I've still 'got it'. Just like everyone else, I can never be really sure how I'll react in a real conflict as your only know for sure how you did on the last one, but I can only go off the same things you all do, your experience and your confidence.Now, if you think the fact you have had a real fight recently gives you the edge over me, then that's fine. I'm not in competition with you or Antonio, or Mike Mitchell, or anyone else for that matter.
Antonio's comments, like yours Manny, are laced with a dislike for me because of the things I had to say to Harry Cook regarding Higaonna sensei. So even if I can not lay claim to a head to head with anyone recently, I do know I have the same attitude I've always had when it came to fighting and see no reason why that attitude would fail me now. But if you think I'm about to go out each week and prove it you've got another thing comming. My life is too good to fill it with such negative things as aggression, and having been a guest of Her Majesty once, I'm not about to repeat the experience.
There are those on e-budo who feel martial arts are some kind of testing ground for their ego. There are others who I'm sure think the Rambo movies were documentaries, but there are others who have used their training to raise themselves up from the stupidity of solving lifes problems with violence.
Now if you find fighting works for you, it brings you happiness and contentment, then I say go for it but please,don't tell me that way of thinking has anything to do with budo, and the last time I looked this forum was called e-budo.com, not e-go.com
I don't know of any senior karate sensei who are telling their students to go out on the streets and prove themselves, and as I'm only interested in traditional karate, I'll take my lead from them.
I hope this helps with things?

To Mike Mitchell,
Got slammed! Made a fool out of themselves! Oh brother, you have no idea just how badly I sleep at night knowing that you don't like me. Or worse, you don't think I'm any good at fighting.
And your remarks Mike, they cut me like a razor. I'm gutted, I really am. I tell you what. I'll never say another thing and you just let me know when I can write in. Save your insults for those who are bothered by such crap. To me it's all water of a duck.

As to the point of this thread. It wasn't sent directly to Florida,or meant for any one in particular, though some might think so given the response so far. It was purely a topic to ponder on. For example, If you had a drunk mouthing off at you (but hardly able to stand) would you give them a good kicking? Likewise, if you have someone who is clearly unable to understand your point of view (because the're full of their own sense of self importance) would you enter into conversation?

Now can we get on with the thread please.

Mike Clarke.

Goju Man
6th October 2002, 14:12
Micheal, I don't dislike anyone on here, well maybe one but you're not him. In my posts, I've never claimed to know Higaonna Senseis fighting ability, I have never personally met the man. I respect him as a martial artist and hope to meet him one day. My point on fighting is not that you go out and street fight every day, rather what is your measuring stick for your representations? We always did kumite in our dojo, boxers spar frequently, judokas do randori everyday, fencers fence, jiujitsu practitioners grapple everyday. If you are such a high yudansha in your own school, where do you go to do kumite? If you do not, than you really have no gauge at where you are. There's nothing wrong with fighting, as you've seen from many replies to your thread. Forget wether it's e-go or e-budo, you are presumebly a KARATEKA and not a ballet dancer, right? Karate IS about fighting, and it uses fighting as a means to an end. You don't have any knitting kata do you? To stop fights, one has to know how to end fights. As your proficiency increases, your level of how stop them with minimal or maximal damage does also. Karate is the only art I know of where many people don't have to do what it is they are claiming mastery at. Runners run, chess masters play chess, fencers fence, football players play the game, etc.
As for you and Harry, I think everyone's lineage can be scrutenized and criticised from another point of view. I know many with all kinds of rank giving and taken from everywhere, so what? That's e-go. That's why I don't care about lineage or what ever. Prove it in the ring, on the mat or wherever, that will show what your rank is.

Michael Clarke
7th October 2002, 00:06
I'm not sure you're right that karate is about fighting? As far as I know it's about NOT FIGHTING. Every kata starts with a defensive move, not an attacking one.
I agree with you in many ways that karate does not allow you to fight as you train. Sparring (regardless of how strongly you do it) is still a step back from reality. Sparring also teaches how to keep fighting and not how to bring a quick conclusion to the fight. Jiyu yakusoku kumite is much closer to a real situation than sparring. Having a person stand in front of you not knowing exactly what they are going to throw at you is closer than bouncing around tagging each other.
In Higaonna sensei's dojo we did iri-kumi fighting. It allows you to keep going even if your opponent hits you first. You can get into ground work too if that's where the fight goes. But you can not eye couge or bit, or hit the testicals or any other 'soft' target. All of which would be fair game in a real fight on the street.
I took your point a long time ago about my lack of recent real life experience, but while your happy to make out that this is somehow a big fault in my ability to fight, you give your respect to people who have also not had a fight for longer than me.
If I didn't know any better I'd say I could smell a troll or two in south Florida.
But not you Manny, I know you would never do anything like that ;)

Peace and love (and stop fighting, you know it will all end in tears)

Mike Clarke.

Goju Man
7th October 2002, 00:34
Michael, don't misunderstand me. I don't advocate street fighting.You haven't had a street fight in a long time, I haven't meant it in a bad way. I haven't had one in a while either. (not as long as you though) I'd rather not fight either. My point about fighting is if you haven't had a real encounter, and don't do some kind of fighting that is not choriographed against a skilled opponent, how do you know how proficient you are? I do a lot of grappling, kickboxing, and what we call it's all good, which is putting all the ranges into play. I train with active competitors that are skilled. I can gauge my proficiency that way. It's the closest I can come without going out on the street. Judging from my last street encounter, I have only gotten better. Being that my opponents are much more highly skilled than my last real opponent, I can gauge that I've gotten much better. In a real fight, the combatant with the best position will have the advantage. As for grabbing groins or eyes or all that, you still have to be in a position to do so. If you are getting clobbered and man handled, you're most likely to be in a defensive posture and not in an offensive one. Remember, in a real encounter, your adversary can also strike the groin, poke the eye, etc. And, as for biting, I've seen guys have a chunk removed by a bite and din't end it.

I took your point a long time ago about my lack of recent real life experience, but while your happy to make out that this is somehow a big fault in my ability to fight, you give your respect to people who have also not had a fight for longer than me.
Who are we talking about? If we're talking Higaonna Sensei, I respect the man for his contribution to the arts. He actively trains, much more than younger high ranking yudansha. Mike, I think he deserves a little more respect from a student. Wether you're right or not, it's not what many on here describe as budo. So when we talk about fighting, many throw out the budo thing, yet many of the same are ready to rip a guy on here. Isn't that bad budo? Or do we choose budo only when it suits our cause? Mind you, we're just having a discussion, I have actually grown to like quite a few people on this forum.

7th October 2002, 02:56
Mr. Clarke,

I don't know how you know that I will be out of town for two days and not
here to referee but I'm here now and I see absolutely no redeeming feature to your first post or the topic you've chosen.

You guys, I think you should re-read the Care and Feeding fo Trolls and feel somewhat ashamed for keeping this going, :nono: