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Kamiyama
28th October 2002, 16:14
These two subjects come up a great deal in martial arts discussion.... what are you point of views...

Part A - Does religion have anything to do with your skills?
Part B - Does philosophy have anything to do with your skills?

kamiyama, ralph severe

michaelCODY
28th October 2002, 17:39
Yes. Since Ive gotten better at my training, I have also gotten more serious at my practice of being a Christian. I.e, attending church, vocals in our church band, helping with some of the church business such as designing floorplans and a monumental sign for our new property. I have noticed that since my belief in God and my trust in Him as grown, the same has for my training. I train because it brings me happiness and makes me feel closer to my God than ever before and I thank Him for the opportunity to train and having such a wonderful teacher. Because of my teacher, I have seen that you can be "cool" being a Christian and on Fathers Day, I was Baptised. :) I feel we should all learn as much as we possibly can; being like a vacuum cleaner, sucking up everything we can, so in turn, we can give to to the Lord. Trust in the Lord and your heart, and you can persevere to the way of happiness. :) To me, this is shin-shin shin gan.

DavidP
28th October 2002, 18:58
A) To me, religion is the biggest influence on your psycological profile even if you consider yourself not to be religous as the beliefs and values of religion, not only filter down through church, but also through education, politics, laws, media etc etc

Since your martial art behaviours are directly related to your frame of mind (and indeed reflects your frame of mind)it would seem to me that your religion has to be questioned if you want to grow in a martial art.

For example If you study a martial art where effectiveness depends on free flowing natural movement then you need a frame of mind (a psycological profile) that is free flowing. There can be No fear, No rules, No dogma, No limiting beliefs and values of any kind because these things will break up your free flowing natural movement. It would seem to me that studying a religion that has rules, dogma, limits would lead to more rigid frame of mind and hence limit your expression of a free flowing martial art.

B) As for philosophy my belief here is that the techniques taught in a martial art refect the philosophical base of the teacher\master that created them. By studying the techniques with the correct frame of mind you are gradually taking on the masters philosophical base which is really the whole point of the exercise.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject

trickyricky69
28th October 2002, 19:30
I know this is like my second post or something, but I felt I needed to comment on this.

I think your religious beleifs or personal philosophy have a lot to do with your training. It governs when and how you may use it. For instance you may not want fighting to happen, but it may. You may want to try to talk your way out of something before it gets bad. This may be the method of one persn.

On the other hand, you may want to just hawl off and hit him. This is another way of showing your beliefs or philosophy, or mind set may cause you to act in using your skills.

I'm sorry if I rambled, but i have a hard time explaining this. This is how I would explain it, and how it was explained to me. A friend of mine trains with a Christian philosophy behind it. This is him. His sensei however is a buddhist, so he percieves it in a different light. Its all in what you believe I guess. Anyway, happy training.

trickyricky69
R. Holladay
attalla al

"From this day forward you will refer to me by the name Betty....heh, heh, heh!"---Master Pain

Judokax8
28th October 2002, 23:04
"Since your martial art behaviours are directly related to your frame of mind (and indeed reflects your frame of mind)it would seem to me that your religion has to be questioned if you want to grow in a martial art."
As a person who studies judo and strives to live a life as a Catholic I do not find any disagrement between my faith and my MA studies. First I should point out that I do judo not so I can kill someone, but so I do not need to use lethal tactics in a fight. The old do the least amount of damage necessary thing, which in todays litiginous world is a good philosophy for all. I see in judos two principles- Best Use of Energy and Mutual Welfare and Benefit another expression of the Golden Rule Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You. Here's an example. If I had a neighbor who constantly went out of his way to harass me and my family, I could respond in two ways. One- confrontational which requires large amounts of emotional energy and maybe physical, which usually only leads to further animosities. Or I can choose to ignore his actions and forgive him.The forgiveness is not easy, but does have immediate effect. First I do nothing to make a bad situation worse. Second it helps ME overcome my desire for revenge. Third it opens the door to a future possibility where we can live without animosity towards each other. Energy Saved, Both Parties Benefit-Do Unto Others...
Studying judo has given me a sense of confidence that I can deal with situations and as I have grown in my faith I have begun to see that MA and faith are not contradictory! My 2 cents.

Peace
Dennis

Onmitsu
28th October 2002, 23:56
The answer for me in a nutshell is
"the ideas that you expose yourself to
most often, affect the way you think,
the way think, affects the way you act,
the way act, affects your entire destiny."

Ka1yama
29th October 2002, 13:52
As long as you have an open mind it should not be a problem. I do however feel a problem may arise if you start studying out of context, rewording philosophical views that are inherient to your training so that they correspond to your particular creed.
Neil stewart

Tamdhu
29th October 2002, 20:11
Part A - Does religion have anything to do with your skills?
Part B - Does philosophy have anything to do with your skills?


'No' on both accounts for me. The religious culture in which I was raised has certainly had it's effects on how I think and behave, even though I've since 'rejected' it, but it's not something I consciously 'apply' to my training. Philosophies are generally chosen, investigated or courted with a degree of enthusiasm corespondent to the degree to which they harmonize with what we already feel and think inside, so I don't think they really matter much either.

You is what you is, so shut up and eats yer spinach.

; )


Raw experience is the only thing that changes us, for better or worse, and that's what good training is all about.

Tamdhu
29th October 2002, 20:31
I should say that raw experience is the best tool for change, not the only one. Religious and philosophical thinking can bring about change as well, but can lead us down blind or self-destructive alleys much more easily than experience, in my opinion.

NoMan
30th October 2002, 03:36
Originally posted by Kamiyama
These two subjects come up a great deal in martial arts discussion.... what are you point of views...

Part A - Does religion have anything to do with your skills?
Part B - Does philosophy have anything to do with your skills?

kamiyama, ralph severe

Philosophy is integral to how you fight, or even if you fight. Someone taking on an extreme pneumocentric viewpoint will say that fighting is unnecessary, and not engage in combat. That's philosophy.

Other points, for example, what does your personal philosophy justify doing against an attacker? Will you kill them? Permanently injure them? Not everyone can kill another human being, even if their life depends upon it.

My philosophy is simple, I train to have fun. Whatever comes inbetween what I'm doing while I'm having fun is just something that happens. For me, this philosophy makes the martial arts more enjoyable than proving I am the grand dai soke of shin chijo jutsu.

Tamdhu
30th October 2002, 22:07
Someone taking on an extreme pneumocentric viewpoint will say that fighting is unnecessary, and not engage in combat.

Bah. I disagree totally. I've know LOT'S of folks who, when life was sweet and melodius and flowing their way, professed to embody philosophies of sweetness, light and non-violence. Rub one of these folks the wrong way on a bad day and BOOM! You've got a live one on your hands! I've seen plenty that go the other way, too, professing to be angry bad-asses who would instantly rain death on anyone who pisses them off, and then watch them squirm and fidget when duty calls.

There are other folks, of course, who espouse philosophies which more closely match their characters, which is...like wow...really great!


Not everyone can kill another human being, even if their life depends upon it.

True enough. But the heat-of-the-moment reality often contradicts whatever philosophical certainties a given person may have chosen to espouse beforehand.


My philosophy is simple, I train to have fun.

If you didn't consciously espouse that principle, would training not be fun?

I guess what I'm saying is that our philosophies are just ideas to which we cling for any number of reasons, no more or less significant than the kind of clothes we choose to wear. What's really at work in our lives is our character, shaped by genetics, experience, destiny and what-all-god-knows-what-else.

A dork in an Armani suit is still a dork, and all that.

kabutoki
31st October 2002, 16:15
hm, wonder if i can get my thoughts into 0s and 1s.

part a
my skills are in some ways connected to religion. i am not a member of any religious society and have never been to church for my own buisness.
though, the training i attend always starts with a prayer "shikin haramitsu...". im not religious but yet there i sit reciting an old prayer. to me its not so much a religious thing but more the expression of my will to conduct the training as good as possible.

part b
my skills are connected to philosophy in terms of moral. for example whether i do or do not to a person what my skills would perhaps allow me to do (hurt, injure...). the only thing that prevent me from doing so is my moral. part of it is inflenced by western christianity (via education) and part of it is based somewhere deep in the history of mankind. our skills, even if badly performed, or especially then, are dangerous and we all have the potential to do a lot of bad things to others. of course we might also do something good like using the skills to help others...

NoMan
2nd November 2002, 17:33
John, I can't tell if you're taking pot-shots at me or if you are being honest in your inquiries. Anyway:

Original quote:
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Someone taking on an extreme pneumocentric viewpoint will say that fighting is unnecessary, and not engage in combat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bah. I disagree totally. I've know LOT'S of folks who, when life was sweet and melodius and flowing their way, professed to embody philosophies of sweetness, light and non-violence. Rub one of these folks the wrong way on a bad day and BOOM! You've got a live one on your hands! I've seen plenty that go the other way, too, professing to be angry bad-asses who would instantly rain death on anyone who pisses them off, and then watch them squirm and fidget when duty calls.

True, but the only thing I said was "extreme pneumocentric viewpoint will say that fighting is unnecessary". Note the bold emphasis. Whether or not one adheres to what one defines oneself as is another matter altogether, saying something is not a predicate for doing it. For example, a certain 22 year old Soke proclaiming himself to be guardian of all those who call themselves ninjutsu practitioners, (which convienantly reminded me why I adopted the excessive title I sign my posts with). Part of his requirement is that they have a legitimate link to a "real" ninjutsu organization. He himself obviously can't meet his own requirements. Saying something and doing something are another matter entirely.


If you didn't consciously espouse that principle, would training not be fun?

Would I still be a hedonist whether I called myself a hedonist or not? I suppose so, I can't really change the fact that I'm a hedonist, and whether or not I consciously acknowledge that I am in search of pleasure, I still am one just the same.

A dork in an Armani suit is still a dork, and all that.

Granted, but if wearing an expensive suit gets him laid, he's decreased his dorky points signficantly. Besides, once you can afford an Armani suit, you are no longer a dork, all personal idiosyncrasies are referred to as being "eccentricities".

Kamiyama
7th November 2002, 05:35
These are some really great posts.

kamiyama, ralph severe