View Full Version : Daito-ryu Ranking Criteria

Jon O'Neall
18th November 2002, 20:23
I know Sokaku Takeda did not hand out dan ranks for Daito-ryu. But as I understand it, his son Takimune Takeda did implement a dan system. Question though... is it a 5 dan or 10 dan system (or some other variation)?

Just curious.

Thanks! :cool:

Ron Tisdale
19th November 2002, 18:18
I think the Daito ryu study group members in maryland might be able to provide a more complete answer...but I believe that at least in the beginning, the dan ranks correspond to the ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo etc. classification of techniques. Ikkajo being a collection of about 30 techniques = shodan.

Ron Tisdale

Jon O'Neall
20th November 2002, 04:05

Thanks for the input. I would think though that those first 30 Ikkajo techniques would equate to more of a kyu ranking (shoden) than a dan ranking. I could see perhaps the 118 techniques of the entire Hiden Mokuroku being more the break point for shodan. But I could be wrong. :cool:

I think I found my answer anyway though... as I recently read, in the archives of the Aikido Journal I believe it was, that (at least at one point or another) Kondo Sensei held a 7th dan... so I would presume then that it is a 10 dan system.

Thanks! :cool:

20th November 2002, 05:24
A friend of mine held a hiden mokuroku from one of the DTR groups in/near Yokohama. He said that equated to about 2nd dan level.

The funny thing [to me] is the mokuroku was not hand written, but a computer-generated booklet, complete with the shihan's handprint, seals, etc. I thought that was kinda ketchi [stingy/cheap], but then again ... I wonder how many of these would be issued in a year's time -- might be too hard on the hand to brush 'em all. Besides, it's expensive to have makimono framed anyway. Hmmmm ... maybe it's not too strange after all.


Nathan Scott
20th November 2002, 06:57
[Post deleted by user]

Jon O'Neall
20th November 2002, 07:19
Just found this in the FAQ section of www.daito-ryu.org (the website for the mainline branch run by the Soke Dairi Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei).

For the vast majority of practitioners, the Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Hombu has adopted a modern kyu and dan ranking system, with eight kyu ranks followed by shodan, nidan, sandan, etc. after ikkyu.

Kyu-ranked practitioners wear white belts through yonkyu, brown from sankyu to ikkyu, then black from shodan.

Hakama are worn from shodan but are not mandatory.

It should be remarked that this modern ranking system has nothing to do with the system of licensing traditionally used in Daito-ryu and in other classical and semi-classical traditions. It has been adopted simply for the sake of convenience and organization, as well as to provide modern people with identifiable goals to mark and motivate their progress.

Requirements at the Shimbukan for shodan ranking include a sufficient mastery of the thirty techniques in the ikkajo series, a knowledge of Daito-ryu history and etiquette, and the ability to perform 100 breakfalls in rapid succession. Requirements for nidan include mastery of the thirty techniques in the nikajo series, for sandan master of the techniques in the sankajo series, and so on.


chris davis 200
20th November 2002, 11:36
In our branch of hakkuhoKai Daito Ryu we have 34 'basic' JuJutsu techniques + the 30 techniques of Ikkajo in order to obtain Shodan.


Ron Tisdale
20th November 2002, 16:16
Hi Jon,

So it would seem I was not too far off the mark then, wouldn't it?


Jon O'Neall
20th November 2002, 18:07
Hi Ron,

Yep, it would seem you were pretty much right dead on the mark, in fact! :)

Thanks again. :cool:

20th November 2002, 19:58
I thought I read somewhere that Daito Ryu Jujitsu had around 800 core techniques and around 2000 technical variations to those techniques. I also recall that there were two lists or techniques in the shoden level of the art, and that the first list was 118 techniques followed by a list of 67 throws involving aiki. I seem to recall that there are two lists in the chuden level, followed by a large number of techniques in the okudan level. It seems rather strange that a dan rank would be rewarded for learning a selection from the first "beginner" level list.

Nathaniel Gullion

Ron Tisdale
21st November 2002, 13:24
Why does that seem strange? Unlike aikido and many other modern arts, you won't find mainline Daito ryu shodans (or nidans or sandans) going out and opening a dojo on their own. The dan rankings are what they are. They represent what the Menkyo Kaidan and Tokimune say and said they do.

Ron Tisdale

21st November 2002, 16:59
I also recall that there were two lists or techniques in the shoden level of the art, and that the first list was 118 techniques followed by a list of 67 throws involving aiki. I seem to recall that there are two lists in the chuden level, followed by a large number of techniques in the okudan level.

I'm not sure where you get your information regarding what is shoden, chuden and okuden levels, at least with regard to mainline DR. I am aware, however, that Takumakai DR has levels that I believe correspond to these levels in some respects.

It seems rather strange that a dan rank would be rewarded for learning a selection from the first "beginner" level list.

Why? There are a number of ways of looking at it. On the one hand, what is a shodan anyway? Its significance varies depending on the ryu. My understanding of shodan in DR is that it signifies your true entry point into the ryu. Thus, a shodan defines a true beginning point, not an end point.

On the other hand, the significance of "beginning" level techniques also varies depending on the ryu. In DR, according to Kondo Sensei, the ikkajo contains within it some of the most fundamentally important principles of the art. Without mastery of the ikkajo, the rest of the art cannot be learned properly. Consequently, receiving shodan does not necessarily mean one has mastered the ikkajo. Study of the ikkajo should continue throughout one's progression in the art. The more you learn, the more layers you peel away. You start to see things in the kata that you never saw before, subtle principles that come to light only after years of training. All this in the "beginner's" level kata! It may be going too far to call the ikkajo the kihon of DR, but it is something close to this. After close to four years of training in the art, I still keep finding things that illuminate the proper mechanism of more "advanced" kata. In fact, one might even say that ippon dori alone contains a signficant portion of the principles of DR. Much of the rest are physical variations based upon these fundamental principles. The physical manifestation of a kata is only the expression of the core principles of the art. The core remains unchanged, while the manifestations can be nearly infinite.

Best regards,

Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group

21st November 2002, 19:22
The reason why the daito ryu ranking system as described on the board seems strange to me is that it appears from what I have read on this board that a person who has recieved their godan would have learned only the first list of the system.

Now I could be wrong since I am working only on memory, but as I recall the shoden level had two lists of techniques: a list of jujitsu techniques (118) and a list of throws that rely completely upon the principles of aiki (67).

The chuden level has two lists - one called the chuden moruroku and the other called the goshin (probably spelling something wrong here) moruroku both together making up close to 200 techniques that teach aikijujitsu techniques.

The okuden level has over 500 advanced level techniques and the kuden level contains techniques reserved for the head of the system.

If a godan level practicioner has learned the first of two shoden level lists of the art, then am I currect to assume that the remainder of the art is taught between the fifth and tenth dans?

I am not a Daito Ryu practicioner, and am basing my info on what I remember from books that I have read and information that I have read over the internet - so maybe I am completely off here. The reason why the whole system has piqued my curiosity is that I have never read or heard of an art that reserves the intermediate level and advanced level techniques for the godan level and above. Most arts that I have seen, practiced, or read about start teaching the advanced arts of their system somewhere around shodan or nidan, though it usually takes 3-6 years to earn a shodan in the said arts. I have seen friends in aikido earn a shodan in a year and a half to two years. Is Daito Ryu Jujitsu taught similarly?

I do hope that I have caused no insult because none is intended. I practice Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, but enjoy reading and learning about other jujitsu systems.

Nathaniel Gullion

21st November 2002, 21:04
No offense taken.

Shodan in DR can take anywhere from 4-5 years, but there are exceptions. I don't believe that there is a strict association between the dan ranks and learning the curriculum at higher levels.

Kondo Sensei holds a 7th dan, but he has menkyo kaiden. Similarly, other members who are fourth, fifth and sixth dans would not be restricted to only the yonkajo and gokajo of the hiden mokuroku. It is really only at the lower ranks that the student adheres to a more strict curriculum - and in fact, even shodan level students learn more than just the ikkajo and nikajo, as I can attest to.

Best regards,

Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group

Dan Harden
22nd November 2002, 12:51
Once again we see respondants talking about what is and is not the requirements for rank in Daito ryu as if it is a definitve thing by mostly referring to only one schools methods.
I know of several branches who could respond to this with..What?

Nathans reply was the best so far and the only one worth considering as a complete and true response. Everything else needs qualifiers.

Starting off a post by saying
"Shodan in Daito ryu can take"..yadda yadda..
"The Daito ryu ranking system is"..yadda yadda..
Isn't worth the writing or the reading in the first place. It is like saying
"In koryu you do this.........
Its nonsense due to all the implied qualifiers. And "adding" a few one-line qualifers almost as after thoughts(as you have seen above) doesn't quite cover it. The answer is complex and full. And if it is worth writing then it is worth writing well. It is a larger picture with some nuance that is actually favorable toward you that is often left out. Why? There are some things that are favorable to you that you do not know-because you don't know the other side(s).

I hope the new guys in the art are not learning this as a way of "thinking" from Kondo Sensei. Otherwise statements from Ron Tisdale like this one
"I think the Daito ryu study group members in Maryland might be able to provide a more complete answer..."
Will cease to have any valid meaning and we will all have to caution people against their otherwise good advice.

Please be more balanced guys. Nathan and I know people who were studying it in the U.S. about the time some of you were born. Their ranking system is nothing like yours. Can we be a little more humble and take a larger view. And please don't be angry with me-I truly mean no offense. I am asking only for consideration of those who went before you and are practicing quietly all around you.

Nathan and I could think of a few qualifiers that would actually speak very highly of your school and its methods as well as of it's syllabus compared to others but where does these responses leave me compelled to write anything favorable.

As always....good job


Ron Tisdale
22nd November 2002, 15:55
Hi Dan,

I'm not sure what else to do...perhaps I should have stated that the Maryland group studies under the mainline...perhaps they should state their source of information before and after each post, instead of just after...

By now, pretty much anyone should know who they study under, especially since they list their association on every post. I'm sure that I meant no disrespect to those who started before I was born (I'm 41, so if they are still practising, I really admire them).

With Respect,
Ron Tisdale

22nd November 2002, 15:56

I will try to put the following identifier before all subsequent statements: "mainline" DR. I agree with you that different branches have different requirements, as I think I sort of implied regarding the Takumakai, above. Furthermore, except for someone with almost no knowledge of DR, it is well known that Kondo Sensei is the headmaster of the mainline school, and not the Takumakai, Roppokai, Kodokai or Sagawa groups. Thus, by mentioning who my teacher is, I pretty much thought I had identified my school. Anyway.

I do have one gripe, however, with your comment. You NEVER identify what particular line you are coming from, nor who you learned from, nor what connection your teacher has/had with any other group, even though you do talk about DR in general. While I agree in principle with your comments, it seems to me that since you keep bringing it up, you should be the first to make a point of adhering to your own suggestion. No?

Best regards,

Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group

Dan Harden
22nd November 2002, 16:29
Ron you zipperhead...
I was reffering to some of the younger guys..:D not us geizers.

Thanks for not taking it as slight since I meant no disrespect. There are three, no four, people here who post about DR and do not identify their history-which is their choice. I also note that their posts tend to be among the best-very inclusive and rather nuetral. There is no requirement to discuss any affiliation and it seems you guys are of the few who do. For that reason you have chosen to take on an implied (not your choice) condition of speaking for the art. Something that no one else wants or wishes to do. I don't think you do either. I am thrilled for you guys and what you are doing but since yours is the most public it carries some weight.
We are all friends here and the people that train or have trained in it are a small community world-wide. Therefore anything said needs to be as inclusive as we can manage thats all. Please don't think I am implying that you need to answer to anyone or anything like that.. If I were you could tell me to go pound sand. Its just a suggestion and food for thought about the many guys out there who are sweating it out along with you. Does that make sense?
If you go back and read -Nathan does a pretty fair job of that. As for posting about the art itself - he won't, Chris doesn't and neither will I. Only the history.
And you guys are of course free to do or say what you will according to your own judgement not mine or anyone elses. It's cool.

Again thanks for not taking it a slight and staying friendly.
Keep up the good work and have fun.


Ron Tisdale
22nd November 2002, 16:32


Brently Keen
22nd November 2002, 17:26

I understood Dan's post as having less to do with identifying or qualifying your comments with the particular branch you study and more to do with tempering your comments so they are not taken as universal or definitive for Daito-ryu. Likewise if you restrict your posts to what you've been taught, and what you know based on the limited amount of experience you have, rather than speculating and assuming things based on that limited experience (or even rumours) - then it will show much more respect to your own school and teacher(s), as well as respect to those in other branches whose experience may be much more extensive.

All your recent progress, discovery, and enthusiasm is commendable and great, just don't let the excitement of it all run to your heads and carry you away. As Dan keeps reminding us, there's a handful of us here who've been at this neat stuff for a while already. I fall somewhere in the middle of that camp and sometimes Dan's posts have reminded me from time to time to rein in my own excitement and ramblings on too.

One thing I try to keep mindful of is not how much more I know now, but how much more there's yet to discover. The real lesson we should all be learning regardless of which branch we're in is one of humility, realizing how much we don't know, and have yet to learn rather than how much we do. Take a closer look at any of the top instructors, the best ones are really outstanding gentlemen, models of humility with respectable manners as much as they are living legends of technical wisdom (and sometimes wizardry). But don't idolize them or raise them up above a human standard. What makes them humble is they realize their own human frailties, and shortcomings, they also realize the contribution of those who've gone before them and have in one way or another made the way a little more possible for them. And as importantly they never cease to express their respect and appreciation. We all would do well to follow in their footsteps and do likewise.

As is my habit, I've gone off and added my own two cents to what I understood Dan to be saying - please pardon me all my rambling. I know I've got a long ways to go still. Perhaps a fitting motto for all of us might be: "trumpet less and train more".


Brently Keen

Dan Harden
22nd November 2002, 17:42
No one is trying to be secretive, imply superiority, hand out decoder rings or anything like that nonsense. Just the opposite is true.
You could look at it like this- no one wants to talk about it lest they are looked upon as those who "stand in the face of true mastery and speak out of the depth of their ignorance."
Superior attitude?
The history is great stuff.
Most of us feel the art is off-limits to discuss in any depth.
But your mileage may vary

By the way should you think it in some way odd or unique-consider this.
I Haven't noticed anyone discussing
Katori Shinto Ryu
Araki Ryu
Yagyu ryu
Shindo Yoshin Ryu
Yanagi Ryu
Tatsumi ryu
Sho-Sho ryu
Or many other things I could name either. Whats the difference?
Too many people know and are interested in the Daito ryu right now.
That will pass.


22nd November 2002, 18:30
All your recent progress, discovery, and enthusiasm is commendable and great, just don't let the excitement of it all run to your heads and carry you away.
- originally posted by Mr. Keen

I wouldn't worry yourself too much over my excitement. Thanks, though. And don't worry, I would never try to characterize what your particular branch of DR is all about, nor would I even pretend to think that I could represent everything that my school is all about!


Actually, there is a lot, in fact a whole lot, written about many of those ryu you mentioned, just not in english. Katori Shinto ryu has far more public information available in terms of books and video and press coverage than Daito ryu (some in enlgish, most in japanese). Yagyu Shinkage ryu has tons written about it, and quite a few videos [mostly demos], again, mostly in Japanese. The others have quite a bit more "press coverage" than you might think. Many of the headmasters of these ryu have been quite open about discussing their art, in general terms, and have given numerous interviews. Many of these arts have been discussed and written about in some well-known english publications, as well (e.g., the Koryu Books series by Skoss, et. al.).

As for the popularity of DR, it is mostly popular outside of Japan among scam artists who use the name as an appelation to their art in an attempt to confer legitimacy on their own bogus system. I know of very few people outside of Japan who are really studying DR of any kind. OTOH, it's not like DR was ever some secluded village koryu. Sokaku taught thousands (though to only a few did he REALLY teach). Today, the mainline tradition in Japan has a rather large number of branch dojos all over the country. Takumakai also is rather large, and in fact has a far larger international presence than the mainline. In one of Stan's prefaces to his DR books (don't remember which off hand) he states that DR is the most popular system of jujutsu in Japan.

Here's the deal: there are those individuals who, having been fortunate enough to learn a system whose presence outside of Japan is not very large, present the art to outsiders as if it is some kind of special club that no one should really talk about, while in Japan, the system happens to be fairly well known to people in the martial arts community, including the history and type of curriculum, and whose door happens to be open to any serious student who comes looking with an honest heart. That is not to say that there are not many classical styles that are NOT this way, and are very secluded and closed to outsiders. DR (generally speaking) is not, and has not ever been in this century, that way. Perhaps Sagawa is an exception to this in that his dojo is famously closed to most outsiders. After all, it was a certain DR practitioner that travelled to the U.S. some time ago and taught quite a few people and handed out quite a few ranks and scrolls! It's not like these gaijin actually travelled to Japan looking for him. To me, this type of behavior is the antithesis of what a representative of some closed, small school would do.

Now, how you run your own school is nobody's business but your own. But how people talk about the art who actually practice it is, as you said, a matter of individual judgment. Especially in light of the history of DR in the 20th century.

Best regards,

Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group (mainline)

Brently Keen
22nd November 2002, 19:17
"I was just over at the judo forum reading over the tricks that others and myself have givien away on how to level the playing field when faced with a stronger opponent in randori...

Sometimes I forget that some people do not care to share what they know... (generally coupled with the somewhat insteresting tid bit of where they picked it up)"

First welcome to the koryu ajj section of e-budo, I suggest reading up on the differences between koryu and gendai arts.

Koryu bujutsu are not sports where everyone grabs whatever they can to add to their bag of tricks. The koryu are traditions that are held by their headmasters, and in some cases a few other select individuals. They are the sole caretakers and teachers of those traditions. Practitioners of koryu tend to gravitate towards them because those individuals are true masters of those traditions - in a real sense only they can dispense and teach the "tricks" of their traditions (if you want to call them that). Practitioners of these arts come to be taught the skills and strategies of those traditions, by the masters of those traditions. They don't come to compete or to simply collect and gather new techniques and tricks to use and/or share so they can impress their opponents, peers and students.

With all due respect I wonder if you even read Dan's post above? This quote sums it up the proper attitude of a practitioner of koryu pretty well:

"You could look at it like this - no one wants to talk about it lest they are looked upon as those who "stand in the face of true mastery and speak out of the depth of their ignorance."
Superior attitude? Hardly."

I for one hope the ajj forums never stoop to that level. That kind of information is best given to you by your instructor/coach. If they can't or won't address those kinds of questions and problems in the dojo, then I strongly suggest going somewhere else and finding a new, better teacher.

One problem in modern arts today is that there are too many teachers with limited knowledge and skills. When their senior students approach their level they in turn are often expected to become teachers. Not having enough experience or tricks in their bags those inexperienced student teachers continually seek out other (usually equally inexperienced) students and teachers to pick up new tricks and fill gaps in their knowledge.

Please don't mistake me, I'm all for sharing (in the proper context), but it should take place in the dojo primarily from the teacher to student and from sempai to kohai, but not from students to the public while their seniors and instructors look on saying, "what does he/she think they're talking about?".

As Dan indicated in other words, it is humility and respect towards one's tradition and teacher that govern our reluctance to share and disclose our 'pearls before swine' as has also been indicated before repeatedly in these threads - it's not selfishness, arrogance or secret elitism.

Rei (etiquette) in koryu arts is not simple custom, ritual bowing and being polite, it is a foundational principle, it is very close to the heart and soul of the koryu in general, and figures prominently in the practice of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as well as in it's orgins.

If you want to truly level the playing field when faced with stronger opponents, then you ought to first consider the principle of rei.

Brently Keen

22nd November 2002, 21:06
:beer: Dan, Cheers to you and if we ever cross paths please permit me to buy the first pitcher.


Nathan Scott
22nd November 2002, 21:16
[Post deleted by user]

22nd November 2002, 21:16
what is an aikikai? someone who likes to do aikido? someone enlighten me, please :)

Nathan Scott
22nd November 2002, 21:58
[Post deleted by user]

22nd November 2002, 22:38
I was wondering where one should go to find if there is a legitimate daito ryu instructor in the area and/or how to determine if an instructor is legitimate. Are there lists on the internet or would a person have to call to Japan to get such information?


Nathaniel Gullion

Nathan Scott
22nd November 2002, 23:59
[Post deleted by user]

23rd November 2002, 04:15
Not that I am a master of human behavior, but it seems to me that there are already people ripping of koryu arts on regular basis. This is not something new, nor will it probably cease becuase someone chooses a more conservative approach. IMO, it happens because there is a lack of knowledge/information. The scam artist capitalizes on this lack of knowledge/information. In the 70's it was Ninjutsu. P.T. Barnum once said, "there is a sucker born every minute." It seems to me that the best defense to the scam artist is to increase the general knowledge of a particular art so that it is easy for anyone interested in participating to find the information necessary to tell a scam artist apart from a legitimate teacher.

Although I have only been involved in Daito-ryu for a little more than three years, my experience is such that even if I see the true techniques or read about them, I can't reproduce them without a great deal of effort (which most scam artists are not willing to put into anything, hence the reason they are scam artists) and guidance from a qualified instructor.

Along with knowledge and information goes accesibility. Wouldn't it be better to have an art well represented so that someone who is interested might try it out? IMO the majority of people wouldn't last anyway. In the end, by the very nature of koryu arts, the amount of people who will subject themselves to their study will be small in numbers. Plus good representation takes the market for scams away.

I have read about, heard about and seen senior students break away from teachers in manners that are extremely shitsurei (sic?), for lack of a better term. This is an age old story that seems to have happened to every teacher regardless of their experience or humility. Who knows why this happens? However, if this causes a teacher to restrict what they share, then we all may never have had the chance to experience what we have and are experiencing.

Nathan Scott
23rd November 2002, 06:09
[Post deleted by user]

23rd November 2002, 13:27
I see your point. However, I can't help feeling that there must be some middle ground where discussion of lineage and general broad discussion of the characteristics of an art or school would be beneficial to those interested in pursuing. I understand the danger of giving away too much information, although I'm sure that I presented this poorly in my post last night. Having an open line of communication with legitimate schools of an art and a forum like this to point someone in the right direction is a start. I'm trying to remember how I figured it all out.
Oh yeah! I was taken by some two bit player from NY who had experience in Yoshinkan and claimed he was a legitimate receiver of Daito-ryu. Looking back now I know he was clueless. But I was ignorant of the lineage and general background of Daito-ryu and so, I think was my teacher. This guy seemed to know what he was talking about at the time. Anyway, I could have used a forum like this to investigate this guy's credentials further. I guess it isn't so important to understand techniques to accomplish this. However, an investigation of tapes like those sold on the AJ website would have shown his fraudulent technique right off the bat.
Anyway, I see your point and upon deeper thought I think you are correct. Again, I still can't help but feel there is a happy middle ground here.
Thanks for your thoughts,

23rd November 2002, 16:36

I don't completely disagree with you. In regard to public discussion of the seminars, however, I think by this method Kondo Sensei and Stan Pranin are making a concerted effort to expose the frauds out there. In the last four years, the number of Daito ryu frauds showing up at the seminars and/or arguing about their legitimacy with no concern about being challenged as to the true facts has declined dramatically, IMO. We don't see nearly the numbers of people showing up with DR patches and Takeda mon patches on their gi. Nor are we nearly as challenged as much on BB venues. Part of the public front is to fight against these frauds and to make them realize they won't be able to just throw out a bunch of bulls**t without being challenged. Because of the public challenges by Stan and others, most everybody now knows who are the real deal and who are the bulls**t artists.

OTOH, I do think it is a fine line between public accountibility and talking too much. Our goal is to fight disinformation, at least as it relates to the mainline, and DR in general.

As for public seminars in the future, while I do believe Kondo Sensei will be participating in Aiki Expo events in Las Vegas, future Maryland seminars may start to become just a bit more private. Which, to be honest, suits me just fine.

Best regards,

Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group (mainline)

25th November 2002, 01:12
After reading Arman's post I had a thought that lead to a different perspective on the issue of disclosing information. At Kondo Sensei's seminar in Baltimore, there was a great deal of information available for anyone who had the perception to take it. From my vantage point, I learned much. Watching other people with different vantage points than mine, I don't think the same things were taken from the seminar. Not to sound disrespectful, but many people did not have the background or experience necessary to appreciate what we, the study group saw. I'm sure that in a few years, we will look back and realize how much we missed during the seminar.

The point is going to a seminar is an opportunity to pick up information that can be used to scam people. However, this is no different than someone opening a book and reading that the difference between Daito-ryu and Aikido is the size of the circles (available on some web-sites as well). The average Joe could be scammed in this way. Given the existence of more detailed information on Daito-ryu this would not be possible.

I was the victim of such a scam once. The details of this became clear with training and information. It turns out that the Yoshinkan character from NY attended one of Kondo Sensei's seminars. He then came to my teacher with the story that he could teach and provide rank in Daito-ryu, yudansha rank. We paid him about $400 a piece to do this. The result was some very bad Daito-ryu technique and no rank.

A lifetime later (following a complete turn around in my thoughts on martial arts) with a better understanding of myself and what I needed to be a part of I have a Shodan in Daito-ryu and I am proud of the effort I put into it and therefore proud of myself. Yes, I know that I have only scratched the surface. The amount of training and learning that is yet to come is overwhelming at times and everyday I am reminded of how little I know in this incredible art.

The scam will happen regardless of the safeguards put into place to prevent it. That is human nature. People will prevail over these scams. I did and so have others. Some might say that these are valuable life lessons learned. I don't wish these things on anyone nor am I justifying them. However, the more secretive something is kept the easier it is to lie about what you know. It is our job to ask questions about holes in events until we have been satisfactorily answered. As practitioners we must be prudent with whom we share and what we share. Yet, we must share.

What this has to do with Dan ranking I don't know. Maybe there should be a different thread concerning disclosure?


Nathan Scott
25th November 2002, 04:05
[Post deleted by user]

3rd December 2002, 00:57
"For that matter there a literally dozens of guys who train in the art and come here only to read and will not write a thing. And many of us know who they are as well."

Dan who are you talking about? You mean people read the message board yet have nothing to say?

Still in awe after reading that statement.

Dan Harden
3rd December 2002, 02:30
And here before you Brian was a witness to said events mentioned above.

Well well Andrew.
I thought some special forces dude had your number.

Lets see Maybe I should say there are some people who T-R-A-I-N and don't care to write. Happy now?;)

call me tues night.
Ya zipperhead

Cady Goldfield
3rd December 2002, 12:14
Well well.
Goes to show that if ya hang around on E-Budo long enough, all sorts of interesting people show up for the party! Hiya Andy!

4th December 2002, 05:07
It also goes to show you that if you read these threads long enough, the truth will club you like a flying Siamese.

I'm gathering the decoder ring Cady is so proud of isn't a sign of rank... Let's not tell her ok?

(so which of the Japanese words translates to that "zipperhead" rank Dan keeps mentioning?)

Joel Zimba

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Well we
Goes to show that if ya hang around on E-Budo long enough, all sorts of interesting people show up for the party! Hiya Andy!

Dan Harden
4th December 2002, 14:34
(so which of the Japanese words translates to that "zipperhead" rank Dan keeps mentioning?)

Joel Zimba

In martial arts it isn't fixed in stone. But I figure the first four years or so you are a zipperhead. After about ten years you should be good enough to officialy "suck." After another five you may be good enough to be considered generally bad at what your doing. Twenty years in someone else in your art may be able to watch you without actually laughing in your face. Beyond that you frequently feel like you are back at the begining.
Andy almost officially sucks.
you zipperhead.

Good to see ya Joel.
Hey Cady.
heeeeees ba-ack.

Cady Goldfield
4th December 2002, 15:02
Gee Joel,
Thanks for telling me that my Captain Midnight decoder ring doesn't make me the Grand Poobah Empress Deluxe of my ryu. Phooey on you.

At least I can take small comfort in knowing that after 4.5 years of this stuff, I'm just wrapping up my residency as a zipperhead and getting promoted to bonehead. I can only dream of the day when I'll earn the recognition of officially sucking at my art. When that happens, I plan to cork open a bottle of Chateaux Rothchild's finest.

Meanwhile, my belt still holds up my keiko gi pants and the knot makes an unsightly bulge under my hakama, causing gender confusion for casual visitors.

Yep, Dan, he's back... bigger, badder, goofier than ever.

Jack B
4th December 2002, 16:53
That's why Judo obi have a white stripe -- so you can tell the difference!

Lafite or Mouton?

Cady Goldfield
4th December 2002, 17:44
Hm. Good question. Lafite Rothchild '56 ...
Judo has the right idea. It's hard to tell who's what in a baggy judogi!

Jack B
4th December 2002, 21:58
It's on sale (http://www.alcotrade.com/vintage/item.pgs/alpha187.html) for 83,700 Yen per bottle. Start saving your nickels!


4th December 2002, 22:23
Why not just go for "42? Hey, nothing's too good when dreaming?



Cady Goldfield
5th December 2002, 03:04
That vintage is hard to find. Maybe when I get to the point where people from my own art can actually look at my waza without laughing in my face. That should be in around 15 years. ;)