View Full Version : Takenouchi ryu jujutsu

Joel Simmons
27th September 2001, 21:03
Aloha all,

I just wanted to ask if anyone can explain to me some of the basic principles in Takeuchi-ryu jujutsu. I've found a teacher here in Honolulu, but I haven't been able to get a hold of him to speak with.


Joel:cool: :cool:

Neil Hawkins
28th September 2001, 00:46

The best source on Takeuchi Ryu is Wayne Muramoto and he's probably who you are trying to get hold of.

There is a link in the Jujutsu on the Internet thread that will get you to his website. Also try Koryu.com I remember that they had an article or two about it as well.



Joel Simmons
29th September 2001, 09:13
Aloha Neil,

Yes, Wayne Muromoto is the sensei I was talking about. I went to practice with him tonight (Friday). It's a really laid-back but traditional place.

Anyway...can anybody tell me some of the things (in general) I might learn in jujutsu? I have a shorin-ryu background and I'm kinda worried there's no striking at all in jujutsu. (insert laughing and knee slapping here).

Honestly, the only jujutsu I've ever been exposed to is that of the Gracie's and I'm not particularly impressed. With their attitude mostly. Anyway...I'll stop blabbing.

aloha and mahalo,

Dan Harden
29th September 2001, 16:54

First, give it some time to absorb there Bud. Something which you have already done with your present art I'm sure.
Second, if you are planning to spend time with Wayne in an art that certainly has jujutsu-maybe he is the one you should be asking these questions of.
As far as anyone explaining the principles of that particular art's jujutsu to you-there may be two men in North America qualified to answer your questions about the principles you are about to encounter. Count yourself as an extremely fortunate fellow should Wayne choose to teach you. His art is a fine rarety. Trust us, that you may not know -just yet- how lucky you are.

That said, I think you will find many jujutsu styles have striking and types of kicking-which may or may not be of different application than your used to. You may also find fundamental strategic differences in the approach to an opponent and what you will train to do once you are "there" on the inside. What I may consider inside may be different from what you have seen inthe graice style.
As an example, depending on your training you probably have inculcated a response/timing automatic response in you to an attack. Do you think that same distance -hip movement- entering-and displacement will work in your new venture?
I would guess ...no
If not, how long do you think it will take to re-wire you to a jujutsu based response? Until this has been accomplished in you- you can't truly understand the differences anyway-only "talk" about them. And "talking," as you already know from your previous art, doesn't even begin to cut it.

We all try to share here-there just aren't many of us who have a passion for budo....but unfortunately this medium doesn't work so much for Budo...yer just gotta train.
In my opinion Jujutsu (good) jujutsu, is just a different animal.

Sweat sure does answer alot of questions.


"When the effects of exercise build up unawares and pratice accumulates, thoughts of wishing to -quickly- develop skill disappear quietly, and whatever you do, you spontaneously become free from conscious thoughts..........your body, feet, and hands act without your doing anything in your mind, you make no misses, ten times out of ten.

Yagyu Munenori
A treatise on the Family traditions of the arts of war

Benjamin Peters
27th June 2002, 23:45
Was Takeuchi Ryu Jujutsu or any other koryu Jujutsu taught to soldiers as a mass? For instance, from bits I've heard certain sword school were taught to the soldiers. Was the same for JJ at any stage in Japanese history - if so what other JJ schools were taught to soldiers?

28th June 2002, 15:08
Hi Benjamin.
I think I am right in saying that most of the domains in Japan through the 'koryu' years had there own schools in-house that taught to the Samurai of their domain only. Like the Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu being taught only in Satsuma-han and only to members of Satsuma-han' Samurai population (Or commoner depending on the school).
Schools that taught only in a specific Han are generally referred to as Otome Ryu and there are several instances of this through the years in Japan.
Jujutsu was also treated in this fashion. It was common to find quite a few separate Ryuha within the domain all teaching various aspects of Martial arts whether it was Hojutsu, Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, Sojutsu or Heiho etc..This allowed the domain to build a solid base of warriors who had access to a choice of arts in order for them to strengthen their clans 'armies'.
I know that schools like the Yagyu Shingan Ryu had teachings aimed at many levels of authority in the Samurai hierarchy, for instance the Ashigaru warriors would be taught different waza that were aimed at them (And the 'needs' of their particular class) and there were also teachings for 'inner guards' and others in the ranking systems....I would assume that a pattern similar to this was followed by other Han also around Japan at that time.
Not sure if this helps answer the question but it is a start I guess.

29th June 2002, 01:01

Nope. As far as the Takeunouchi (Takeuchi) ryu goes, it was never taught en masse to any fief's army. The founder, Hisamori, laid down a "house" rule that none of his descendants who were instructors in the style would ever serve a daimyo ever again, nor should they teach as a daimyo-sponsored martial arts instructor. If you were interested in studying the ryu, and was in the employ of a daimyo, then you were welcome to study, but from the beginning, our ryu avoided aligning with any particular daimyo or army. This was because Hisamori's earlier dealings in the wars between the Oda/Toyotomi and the Western daimyo (Mori) left a really bad taste in his mouth. He was disgusted with fighting for power-hungry daimyo and became a sort of gentleman farmer.


Wayne Muromoto

Benjamin Peters
9th July 2002, 22:39
Out of interest, have would it be fair to say that takenouchi ryu has influenced most JJ schools? Which ones?

9th July 2002, 23:00
Benjamin Peters wrote:
"Out of interest, have would it be fair to say that takenouchi ryu has influenced most JJ schools? Which ones?"

I don't have my texts in front of me, but the list is long. Off the top of my head, there's the influence it had, documented directly or indirectly on the Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu (or Hontai-Yoshin-ryu), Araki-ryu, Fusen-ryu, Takenouchi Santo-ryu, and even Kodokan judo newaza. A lot of grappling schools after the Takeuchi-ryu were influenced by it, especially in the Edo period, when there were a lot of dojo and some inter-dojo grappling contests, where different ryu seeded each other with various new contest-type techniques. No doubt the influences came back too, as techniques from other schools (taryuden) were tested and used in its competitive training. There's a picture of Jigoro Kano posing in front of the Kyoto Butokuden with several Kansai area jujutsu masters who probably helped him develop the judo kata. About three of them have some connections with the Takeuchi-ryu.

Wayne Muromoto

Eric Joyce
31st December 2002, 14:34
Would anyone happen to have any information on this particular style of Koryu Jujutsu? I actually came across this style in Serge Mol's book and wanted to learn more about it. Any help would be appreciated. :)

Daniel Lee
1st January 2003, 09:07

I understand Wayne Muromoto-sensei's Seifukan dojo website includes an introduction to the Takeuchi-ryu taught at his dojo. I think you should be able to access it via www.furyu.com (http://www.furyu.com).


Eric Joyce
2nd January 2003, 12:22
Thanks Daniel. I did check this out and it helped.

3rd January 2003, 19:47

Any questions? Sometimes I do answer my email at wmuromoto@hotmail.com regarding takeuchi-ryu. Any other stuff that looks like junk mail, I trash immediately. Other stufff sometimes takes a while, but I try...

The Mol book is...hmmm. Inter-esting. Has some interesting stuff in it, but some oddities as well. It's been dissected at length by others on this site. Suffice it to say that it introduces the Takeuchi/Takenouchi-ryu but that's about all you're getting...a very brief intro. Anything beyond that...even some of the waza...is somewhat curious. Interesting. Hmmm.

Wayne Muromoto

17th January 2003, 09:58
Hello Russ,

Not having Diane Skoss' collection in front of me right now, I hesitate to make a comment, but basically...The most direct interpretation of the origin myth I got was that the founder, Takeuchi (or Takenouchi) Hisamori, after several days' worth of fasting, training and praying, had a vision upon awaking from a fatigue induced slumber. Someone that looked like an old mountain priest appeared on a cloud and beat the crap out of him, split his long bokken in half and told him to concentrate on a dagger half the length of his bokken, and then yanked out a kudzu root and taught him some rope binding methods (hojojutsu).

This was as Sannomiya shrine, but Hisamori considered the apparition to be a manifestation of Atago Gongen (which is related to the Shogun Jizo and to the Buddhist Fudo Myoo and Marishiten), so Atagosan is the ryu's mountain/patron.

Before and after that event, Hisamori and the Takeuchi family had experienced several battles, the last of which was that between the Mori of Western Japan and that of Oda Nobunaga's forces, led by Hashiba Hideyoshi, the result of which was a truce and the death of Shimizu Muneharu.

The second and third masters of the school also underwent shugyo and experienced their own versions of a visionary enlightenment.

In fact, my sensei warned me that were I continue training for several more years, one day I might end up being told to consider undergoing rites for the upper level ranks, which, he said, should rightfully include the time-honored tradition of fasting and training for several days to receive my own enlightenment into martial arts satori (although not many really do it anymore...it seems to have gone optional since so many students are busy working all the time). For me, as someone who loves his daily square meals and added snacks while watching TV, that prospect sounded rather daunting . No food? No TV? No...Joe Millionairre or CSI? Augh.

And, to also answer a related thread that questioned whether or not "koryu jujutsu" had actual "battlefield applications," I must say that historically and technically speak, at least in the case of our ryu, there is no question that its root techniques, particularly in the kogusoku forms, came out of classical combative situations in warfare...They were probably actually used. Forms based on duels, within a castle during peace time, "self defense" or competition also exist, but they are additions to, not modifications of, the original kogusoku forms.

And no, for this kind of info, I don't have to kill you. :-) Maybe buy me a beer one day, however.


17th January 2003, 18:04
Hi Eric,

QUOTE: Would anyone happen to have any information on this particular style of Koryu Jujutsu? I actually came across this style in Serge Mol's book and wanted to learn more about it. Any help would be appreciated.

Also, you can have a look in Draeger's book on koryu bujutsu.
There are some nice pictures to boot.


20th January 2003, 20:38
Hi Russ (mekugi), et al...

Quit calling me Mr. Muromoto. It makes me feel my age. Wayne will do fine.

And geez...I better dash off a book and video of the shugyo diet before one of you guys beat me to it. It would satisfy the weight loss, exercise and New Age religious crowd all in one fell swoop, wouldn't it?

Reminds me of the last time I visited one of my sensei in Japan. I wanted to be very nesshin and train real hard. He was so happy to see me that he grabbed a six pack of beer and, being that I was trying to be on the wagon, he ended up drinking nearly all of the beer while watching me train with his senior students, then he fell asleep on the mats when we were talking story. So much for more training.

I've since trained real hard at beeru-ryu and now can drink at least one beer (Japanese sized bottle) for social grace's sake. So maybe come May when I go vist Kyoto, we can go out and have at least one beer. Mie ken? That's close to Kyoto, ain't it? Home of the Iga ninja (chuckle). Or at least some very nice scenery. What are you up to there?

Wayne Muromoto

21st January 2003, 05:36

Off the subject, but ...

I knew it was too good an idea to hold onto. So you got some'a them thar California soke types already snookered into producing some shugyo tapes already, huh? And the beat yourself thin with a blunt object-ryu sounds like another pretty good sell to the sado masochistic crowd.

(Hey, this sounds like kendo...You one'a them guys with those big stick doohickies?)


There goes my dreams of making lots of money like those guys on late night telemarket TV.

Ahhhh....Japan. The only places nuttier than Japan are arguably the US and Great Britain, from what I saw when I visited there, such repositories of great looniness. Enjoy those office girls while you can, my hakujin friend, just don't do anything that would have a whole Mie ken village running after you for some haji. Maybe I see you in May.


24th January 2003, 01:35
I had a couple of questions for Wayne regarding Takeuchi Ryu.

First, and completely off topic, the Furyu website is down? or is it just my p.o.s. comp.?

Secondly, I understand that Wayne trains in the Bitchu Den tradition, and we often hear of other westerners training in other famous Ryuha (TSKSR, YSR etc.), but I've never heard of anyone training in either of the 'main' branches of the Takeuchi Ryu. Is this because noone has, or its just kept private?


Dan Harden
24th January 2003, 03:45
Other people train in it and don't talk about it. Theres a couple of Koryu in Mass. that no one knows anything about-you can't find it. and they don't care for you to find it.


29th January 2003, 17:57
I was wondering how many lines of Takeuchi ryu there are? I was also wondering if anyone from the original family line is an active shihanke?

31st January 2003, 21:53

As far as I know, there are three general lines of the Takeuchi or Takenouchi-ryu; the soke and sodenke lines are headed by branches of the Takeuchi main family. The Bitchuke or Bitchuden line branched off a while ago but now, thanks to cars and modern transportation, everyone's trying to get back together to standardize somewhat the systems...The soke and sodenke lines are in the Okayama countryside, and the Bitchuke line have their main dojo in Kurashiki, Okayama City and Kyoto. There are also two dojo in Tokyo. And that's about it.

Wayne Muromoto

Iron Clad Brute
1st February 2003, 12:21
How about this one down here in Oz? Takenouchi Hangan Ryu - listed here: http://www.geocities.com/koryu-bujutsu/dojoguide.html on Daniel Lee's page.

I seem to remember that the school was listed as Takenouchi Santo Ryu last year? Andrew Turner was doing some "stiring" here, anything come of it? Andrew, you still around after your roasting in the "is koryu jujutsu battlefield effective" thread?

Mr Lee, a job well done. How did you come by the info on your page?

Iron Clad Brute
3rd February 2003, 12:34
"Stupid" question:
Takeuchi and Takenouchi..same thing different spelling...why does (did) the spelling change?

What was this in response to Russ?

3rd February 2003, 13:32
Hi Russ,
The English spelling may alter but the Kanji are the same in both cases...This leads me to think that it may be a 'silent' 'no' sound, like the ones found in the titles of Samurai- 'Tosa (no) Kami' say, where the Kanji only show the readings for 'To', 'Sa', and 'Kami' while missing out the 'of' ('No') part of the word...Maybe?
Bottom line is that I don't know but this may be the answer..IMHO.