View Full Version : Daito ryu and Chinese arts

18th June 2003, 00:35
in the site <http://www.taikyokuken.co.jp/english/english.html>, theres a japonese teacher, hidemine jibiki, who claims that he learned daito-ryu from tsunejiro hosono and kotaro yoshida.
can any of tell me about this teachers claims about daito-ryu and the relation of his teacher, tsunejiro hosono, to sokaku takeda.
thanks for the help!!

chris davis 200
18th June 2003, 10:07
As far as i am aware this is a genuine group that trace their lineage back to Wang shu Jin, the famous internal arts fighting master from Taiwan.

Regarding the daito ryu lineage - i do not know much about it - the school is respected and i beleave that their lineage would be quite easily tracable and genuine.


Nathan Scott
18th June 2003, 18:41
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Chris Li
19th June 2003, 08:06
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Daito ryu Tai Chi? Hmmm. Personally, I'm not for mixing the arts of different countries, from a traditional standpoint. I know that both Yoshimaru Keisetsu and Sugawara Tetsutaka have done some published research on comparisons between DR/Aikido and Tai Chi/Chinese martial arts. The comparisons are interesting, and I'm sure there are similarities on a fundamental level. But Chinese MA and Japanese MA seem to think, move and flow a little differently.


I haven't seen Yoshimaru Keisetsu outside of his books, so I couldn't say what he does on a day-to-day level, but Sugawara definitely does some funky stuff with Japanese and Chinese arts. I participated in one of his Japanese-Chinese "friendship" demonstrations in Tokyo, and he did a demonstration of Aikido as a Tai-chi form.



chris davis 200
19th June 2003, 09:23
hi guys,

I dont think that this school teaches Tai chi in the Daito Ryu Class or the other way around. as far as i am aware they are destinct classes and are seperated.

I dont think that mixing tai chi into the daito ryu syllabus would be a very good idea or vis versa - Daito ryu Tai chi?? Would sound a bit silly!. But studying tai chi in conjunction with daito ryu can have its advantages in my oppinion.

I have found the it is very good for understanding softness, balance and smooth movements. The chin na aspect is also very similar to daito ryu and, although rairly taught, can give you a better understanding of Kizushi(sp).


A. M. Jauregui
19th June 2003, 09:58
I thought that only fools learn tai-chi...
*j/k UB40 ref.*

I look forward to what others have to say on the topic of daito ryu and tai-chi for I have yet to try the latter.

Striking Hand
19th June 2003, 10:22

I study Chen Tjq over here in japan under a 20th generation Instructor/Lineage holder.

AFAIK, no reported/documented link exist between DR and T'ai ji quan.
The same counts for aikido.

The school in Shibuya is well known and teaches a multitude of Martial Arts.

I considered them once, but didn't like the way they seemed to be commercialised and the way the charged for lessons.
This does not mean that they teach bad MA.

From what I can gather they run multiple classes in a variety of styles and arts, there does not seem to be much mixing between styles.


chris davis 200
19th June 2003, 10:28
I study Chen Tjq over here in japan under a 20th generation Instructor/Lineage holder.

who is this? Just interested, cheers :)

Striking Hand
19th June 2003, 11:12
Originally posted by chris davis 200

who is this? Just interested, cheers :)

Chen Pei Shan he teaches small frame Chen TJQ and also lives in Tokyo.

19th June 2003, 11:45
Dear Nathan:

".....Daito ryu Tai Chi? Hmmm. Personally, I'm not for mixing the arts of different countries, from a traditional standpoint....."

I don't know if it works quite that way, but let me give you a thought.

In Korean Hapkido arts there is, of course, the influence of Japanese traditions and not a little talk about Daito-ryu AJJ. However there is also the influence of Chinese traditions, most clearly found through the MU YEI TO BO TNG JI which incorporates material from Gen. Qi of the Ming Dynasty. You will recall, I think, that this is the same material which is thought to form the foundation for much of Chen TCC as the "Cannon Fist" Form. And Gen Qi's material, in turn is thought to derive from the Taizu Long Fist of the Song Emperor Taizu of the 10th Century. The result is that a particular posture or method may be seen as one of the 32 methods identified by Gen. Qi in his boxing approach, or it may be likewise approximated by a particular method observed in Daito-ryu--- give or take the position of a foot or pinkie. In this way, I am not sure that one would say that two arts (TCC and DRAJJ) are blended as much as one can say that careful observation can reveal biomechanics that they both share, or express. FWIW.

Best Wishes,


Nathan Scott
19th June 2003, 19:33
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Ron Tisdale
19th June 2003, 20:25
Hi Nathan,

What is your take then on what Takamura Sensei did with Shindo Yoshin ryu (I think that's the correct name)?


Nathan Scott
19th June 2003, 22:01
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20th June 2003, 15:30
Im not sure shared history of the two arts, however, I can tell you there completly differnt now. There like ying/yang In/yo:D. Depending on your teacher and if you learn applications or not I think nothing but good things can be gleened about cross training Tai chi and incorperating it into your aiki. There is a quaility of movement in Tai Chi that is really unique and differnt than JMA or FMA or western systems. The training meathodology in the chinese systems(Especailly military) that I have studyed/studying is also somthing that is worth looking into. You could say I have bought into the "tradition" of investagating and studying anything that works.

Nathan Scott
20th June 2003, 20:17
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Eric Joyce
20th June 2003, 20:47

I would have to agree with Nathan on this one. I know I am a stickler when it comes to this (Learning and preserving traditional ways). It's what keeps the art alive through time. Plus, it's what makes studying the arts enjoyable (at least from my perspective) Once you start to "cross-pollenize" things, the art (at least the classic ones) starts to lose its identity.

21st June 2003, 04:59
If classical art preservation is your goal than by all means dont change a thing. Just curious though, would this include not letting foreigners learn the secrest of the art:D. Taking of blood oaths ect...OO Wearing of the two swords all the time. See were Im going with this?

I just thank my lucky stars that I have had "exceptionally" good teachers in more than a couple of differnt arts that had my best interest at heart which was making me a better martail artist and person instead of up holding a "so called" tradition. If not I would more than likly would be dead. That would really be some tradition :rolleyes: Im sure my kids would understand there daddy not being around as long as his art stayed pure. I could almost puke. Its interesting in China when a student wanted to learn a skill that he was not familiar or not an expert at, so to speak(like the spear), he would send the student to a teacher who was. The more that things change the more that they stay the same. The more I think about the cross-pollenization remark kind of sound racist.
It also makes me wonder if some of the posters have ever been in a fight? If so, I would "love" to hear how tradionial it was.

"sticking your head in the sand dosnt make you disappear"


Gregory Rogalsky

21st June 2003, 11:49
Dear Eric:

".....I would have to agree with Nathan on this one. I know I am a stickler when it comes to this (Learning and preserving traditional ways). It's what keeps the art alive through time. Plus, it's what makes studying the arts enjoyable (at least from my perspective) Once you start to "cross-pollenize" things, the art (at least the classic ones) starts to lose its identity....."

Believe it or not I support your position very strongly. I have seen no small amount of change in the KMA over my career and frankly I am not often sure that the change has been for the best--- or even productive. Things have modified over the years-- slowly, with considered purpose. For this reason I any pretty adamant about not simply cross-matching material from a variety of sources to produce hybred arts on impulse.

The reason I raise the thought of the Chinese arts is that there are many influences that may not be getting their due. As I am a practitioner of KMA rather than JMA I don't pretend to speak to the the latter. However, regarding the former I can speak with some authority when I say that following the Occupation, the overwhelming weight of KMA was skewed towards JMA. The would have been predictable given the circumstances and the times. The magnitude of the influence, however, was such that even Koreans, themselves, began to deny that there were any traditions other than those imported from Japan. Hyung proceeded from Japanese Kata and were executed with distinctly Japanese biomechanics. Patrilinear hierarchies, ranking systems and organization was all laid over the KMA.

Now, I am not naive enough to think I can reverse some 100 years of Japanese influence. However, when I practice my hyung I may now, as frequently, look to Chinese material as Japanese for a more thorough understanding of why I do what I do. For instance, though my Hapkido hyung are of a distinctly Japanese flavor, when considering an application for a biomechanic I can examine Cannon Fist of Chen TCC as easily as Funakoshi or Ueyshiba. I might not understand a particular sword parry, but I no longer automatically run to DEITY AND THE SWORD for insight when I also have Dr. Yang, Jwing-ming to draw on. I suppose what I am suggesting is that despite my strong support of your position, I also leave the door open for additional imput from alternate sources.

For the purposes of this post, though, everything I have just said brings us to the ultimate question. IF--- I was taught a particular method or biomechanic, and sought after additional insight (even over and above what my teacher gives me), and SHOULD I find such insight in an alternate source, would I be empowered to adjust or modify my execution? In asking this I am putting aside for a single moment the strictures and injunctions of organizations and considering only the nature of the culture I presume to study. My thought is--- if the answer is "no"--- than the discussion (and perhaps growth)would seem to stop there. If, however the answer is "yes" how then does one represent the modified material to ones' own community? Just some thoughts.

Best Wishes,


21st June 2003, 22:22
thank you guys for your points, but i was originaly asking about proficiency level of mister hidemine jibiki in daito-ryu.
is he a hiden mokuroku, hiden no gi, kioju dairi

Nathan Scott
27th June 2003, 00:20
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